RE: Downvotes Oh Noes!
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Thank you for noticing us! I learned a lot from this post. We don't self-upvote, and only add content that is original to us first over at our site, but maybe we should only post those here? We've written articles in support of HIVE and we add the link to HIVE in our footer to encourage people to sign up here. We also have an auto-link set up with SoMee as well, where we've been active nearly since the beginning. We also try to engage here as much as time allows by upvoting and commenting on other posts, so we do try and contribute to the ecosystem. In any event, we can all do better, thank you again!
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https://peakd.com/health/@activistpost/pandemic-lies-infect-the-un-and-the-us
Gonna take a shot in the dark and say that this is the one that did you in.
How dare you question the mainstream narrative of the pandemic.
Pretty common source of contention around here.
I was fully canceled by a certain someone years ago (unnamed) for talking trash about mask 'science' and mandates and whatnot.
Also getting upvoted by Xeldal can catch auto downvotes.
Fun times.
Interesting, it's something we've covered before. I didn't think there was such a mainstream narrative interest here. We don't even mind legitimate downvotes, especially if there is well-reasoned comment attached to it. We'll keep posting here, for information's sake, but there has to be a more equitable way to measure what the community values, and maybe a different way to calculate the weight of a given vote. I just hate to see people leave who have been here for a long time and who are trying to contribute to something (we thought) was better than Facebook, Twitter, et al. Thank you for taking the time to respond! Please keep us posted on any other improvements or - I hate to say it - somewhere else that isn't quite as manipulated.
The problem here is that we haven't reached consensus about how to decentralize downvoting. Obviously this is a problem that fixes itself given a better token distribution (no more one person canceling out 100 other votes), but I think there are more democratic ways to regulate the situation and make sure it doesn't get out of control... I have a few ideas but... I can't build it unless I have employees/devs. Maybe one day.
Have you seen any dev discussions here about addressing the issue? Otherwise, we'll have to hope you get your own resources :-)
I am responsible for many of the DV on your post. I am personally telling you directly, it is NOT about the content. It is about the same reason Edicted is downvoted. The net rewards gotten high.
On top the account tdvtv is bindly posting 18-20 posts a day and xeldal and resonator blindly upvoting them. If that continues. Not just me, many others will DV you.
Also, I know @edicted for a long time. He likes to speculate. I appreciate that. However, most of us here knows, the amount of speculation that he does, at least some of that bound to fall flat. It is a statistical certainty :)
@resonator does not blindly upvote any posts - all posts are manually reviewed before upvoting.
In that case, the relative % of vote matters. Perhaps that can be adjusted...
Community can view the voting pattern, it is public
https://hivetasks.com/@resonator
and Xeldal's voting pattern
https://hivetasks.com/@xeldal
Compared to that, Curangel's upvote pattern..
https://hivetasks.com/@curangel
Community can check and decide.
The voting pattern for @resonator is in response to the content on the network. The main thing we are looking for when curating is posts that are aimed at identifying and solving real world problems. There are many problems we face that are avoided or heavily mis-represented by mainstream narrators. Anyone wanting to receive substantial upvotes from resonator can start by focusing on the real world problems that are not receiving enough attention and/or by providing information that is hard to come by on the controlled web 2.0 platforms.
We think that by far the most powerful utility that Hive currently has to offer is it's immutability and so this naturally leads to promoting content that makes use of the free speech vehicle that Hive was born to be.
If there were substantially more content creators on Hive producing content that aligned to meeting the needs of humanity and our own goals, then our vote spread would be greater. As it is we spend several hours every day reading many posts in order to place the votes that we do. The issue of any perceived limited vote spread is not a lack of effort from our part, but a lack of content that fits our criteria. This is partially because of previous downvoting rampages on this network which caused numerous content creators who are oriented towards topics that revolve around 'improving life' to leave Hive.
Voting on Hive is based on subjective preferences and it is healthy that people have different interests and support a broad spectrum of types of content. However, in order to achieve the noble goal of voting for a wider spectrum of content creators, we will look at ways to inspire more content creators to produce content that meets our voting criteria.
n.b. You can see from our vote spread that we, in fact, do not blindly vote tdvtv as they don't even appear in the data.
If that is all that you care for just decline rewards.
It is already immutable. I will totally support you then.
Resonator rarely posts, so declining rewards would not achieve anything significant.
To clarify for you, the comment about immutability is in reference to the marketing of Hive - there is a large potential market for uncensored social media and immutability is a key selling point for Hive. Immutability does not negate the post reward mechanism that all Hive users can benefit from. On the contrary, these features were designed from the beginning to compliment each other and to both serve as selling points for Steem/Hive that help the network effect to amplify.
I am not clear what form your support would take if all of the accounts we voted on were declining rewards, but since we have no way of controlling them it is an irrelevant point. If you can more clearly articulate your goals in this conversation we will be happy to take on board constructive suggestions that serve the growth of Hive and the user experience of the community.
I am sorry for not being more elaborate.
It is not about you, it is about the people or accounts you vote. The problem from my, and our hive community members, point of view is dual.
Sometimes, due to auto-vote, some account can get substantial amount of rewards consistently. This is not content creators fault per say. As they didn't set up auto-vote or stike a deal (although in the past that has happened) But if they want they CAN do something about it. They can post less frequently (as many veteran hivers do). Or they CAN decline rewards (just like edicted did on his latest post, Kudos to @edicted !)
Second, the curator, you, can address the problem as well. You can potentially skip certain content creator manually even if their content seem to fit your criteria, or vote them less than you thought you might, just to adjust for normalization.
That is good curation. Spreading the rewards far and wide, even if it doesn't match your criteria 100%. Again this is not about my world or political view or yours. I am a very practical and factual person. I view it flatly from the reward or 'money' point of view. My goal is to normalize the rewards as much as practical.
I see. I am interested to understand your motivation and rationale for aiming to limit the capacity for curators to reward the content they prefer, in favor of a kind of averaging effect where all creators receive a standardized (or 'normalized') payout. Perhaps I am misunderstanding your goals here.
If all curators based their voting not on the content of the posts, but instead aimed to reward content creators who were not receiving any upvotes, wouldn't we completely break the essence of Hive - proof of brain? Wouldn't that completely negate the motivational mechanisms that Steem/Hive are based on? Wouldn't we also inspire people to simply create multiple accounts that churn out valueless content in order to receive upvotes?
there is a big gap between 'valueless content' and 'highly over-rewarded content'. There is a middle class. This middle class is what most of the curators are missing. Look around, and you will see them.
I am here for a long time. I know what hive is, please believe me. I call this my home. You are welcome, and thank you. That is all the time I have today.
PS.
We are handling 'valueless content' far better than 'highly over-rewarded' content, thanks to multiple anti-abuse projects. Like Hivewatchers, and Hive-DR and several other individuals are accounts who have downvoted some of these posts.
Total amount of downvote issued is insignificant compared to total amount of upvote issued on hive. This is a verifiable fact. Anyone can check it. Yet, multiple people have written posts about 'abuse of DV' however, I am yet to see a post of 'abuse of upvote' in any recent memory. You guys talk about 'alternatives'. Don't you find it funny?
OK, there is a lot to digest here, but we greatly appreciate the interaction and explanation from your point of view. We're so focused on the content that apparently we haven't accounted for the other elements (mostly) beyond our control. I'll discuss with the crew here and try to get a better handle on how to proceed. I'll just say that from our perspective, we have been greatly defunded by Google, et al. so naturally we are seeking revenue, but if we can do this in a better way for the HIVE community, then we'll aim for that. Much appreciated!
Thank you also for taking the time to discuss this. We're still digesting this entire thread, but we do appreciate the interaction and support!
Thanks for supporting Hive with your content.
Hive is a truly decentralized and dynamic, community driven project - so it is important for the community to get clear on what we need and to work together to create it. The system is complicated and many details are not obvious, so people often have different ideas about the best strategies for success, often based on misunderstandings or differences in perception regarding what Hive is and what a successful growth strategy for Hive looks like.
Add to this the common trend of people seeking short term financial gain over long term growth and also the potential for bad actor involvement from competing networks... and we have the recipe for a spicy burrito! ;)
Very well said!
20 posts a day... What the fuck is that an AI? I sometimes have 3... that hardly earn $30 altogether and I feel like a spammer doing that...
Wasn't about the content, but if people are going to throw blind/dumb downvotes around then they shouldn't be surprised if they get some back after tolerating a few. I for one curate when I downvote and fwiw I don't agree with big downvotes that curangel seems to like to cast neither, have had to counter a few of those in the past. I guess they're reasoning is hitting a few authors hard is better than many overrewarded authors soft for longer periods which I'm not a fan of as it causes more drama and unfairness than necessary.
Honestly zeroing out a single shitpost to zero is all the wake-up call I need.
Like, that's funny, we can all laugh about it.
Zeroing out a week's worth of posts all at once is just demoralizing and counterproductive.
But whatever, live and learn I guess.
Please don't be demoralized.
I hope you can check your account now, I don't think I have done any dent to your rewards :)
Someone once said to me, and I really like it
you do you, universe will do universe
The person who said that is my friend (good friend, no joke), and he countered majority of the DV.
Cheers!
I assume you must be talking about Matt?
Cool guy.
You seem interesting as well.
Which is funny because so many people make you out to be the fucking Devil.
That's what I get for fraternizing with churchgoers I guess.
I have like three reasons to be demoralized at the moment.
One of these days I'll get my shit together, eh?
But also it's weird for you to say you enjoy my content when I don't really recall you ever upvoting anything I've ever written. Accounts like @altleft and @newsflash upvote and downvote my shit all the time, which is super interesting. My good content gets a good reward and my bad content gets a bad reward. That's the goal, yeah? I haven't added up the numbers but it feels like a bit of an overall wash when looking at those two accounts. If someone upvotes me for $20 then downvotes me for $20... hard to complain.
I think at the end of the day I'm mostly annoyed at myself for not grinding out more code and figuring out how to build some real value around here. That's a 'me' problem I suppose.
Yes, because I have almost never seen anything that you have written below $50-70 range. NEVER in recent memory. Right?
@slobberchops and @meesterboom are both my close friends. I enjoy their writing a lot! I rarely can vote them, for the same reason. And they can easily farm auto-vote, but check them out. They don't!
What can I say Dude. You can easily see all this and make sense out of it. I am no Monster. I don't have any vested interest other than this little platform to thrive. I have downvoted Khal when he was farming to pay for whatsup. He stopped. I treat everyone with respect and call spade a spade.
WUT!
That means you're slightly younger than me huh?
I just missed the Pokemon craze.
One day, Pokemon on the blockchain.
Prepare to meet your doom.
Gotta catch um all.
Quite right, I'm doing very well here!
I just wish there was more stuff to do around here.
Need to be giving more users more opportunities.
Easier said than done.
Play Splinterlands.
Write codes for them.
Write codes for Splinterlands data that benefit gamers.
It's actually embarrassing how little I interact with Splinterlands considering the circumstances.
Need to get back to it and buy some more SPS as well.
Something I said?
lol. This is such a weird day.
LOL. I was trying to unmute you!
You can talk to people that you have muted?
I've never muted anyone I have no idea how it works.
Just takes posts off your feed or what?
Oh yes! Its mostly a useless feature. But it helps me a bit. All it does that it blocks the ping.
Since you write a lot (I mean you have your moments) in conversation, I had an encounter with you earlier, so to do some work, I had to mute you so that I didn't get any ping.
But I still read and looked around your stuff as I saw fit and my time permits. But you stayed muted.
Now that I am writing to you and others on this ridiculous post of yours for hundreds of minutes, it is more efficient to unmute you.
There you have it!
Enough fun for today. Got to go home!
Nothing guarantees more engagement than writing a post on downvotes.
Is it... productive engagement?
Arguable.
No such thing as bad press, I guess.
I will DV this post right before payout though. It won't be zero, not even close. I hope you are cool with it :)
Also, I will see what I can do about taskmaster. Thank you for pointing that out.
To be fair taskmaster is a bit of a tryhard.
I'd say he puts in more effort than the vast majority.
Which is why I didn't really bring it up until the name got thrown around.
Troll confirmed!
Alright that's enough excitement for one day.
Exactly!
The 'unmute' button is close to follow button, and I have a very fast mouse....which is sad, because I am only getting older and slower.
Ah well one day we'll hack the human genome and all be immortal amirite?
What could possibly go wrong?
Source: Dalz Article
Appreciated Acid! As you correctly said, it is not about the content, but about the normalization of rewards.
If Edicted, of all people, can say he is demoralized about rewards, I don't know what to say! He is top 10 rewarded author on hive, discounting 2 accounts of taskmaster! And null. Hope my math is right!
It's mostly the effects of autovotes like usual, not many can just say no to them by forfeiting part of the rewards or just not forcing themselves to post daily. As you've mentioned when there's also self-votes on top of top authors you really start to wonder if the focus is just the rewards there. At least when they've been here long enough to know how easily they could trail leo.voter or other curators to put their stake passively to use and distribute it wider.
Hm speaking of taskmaster... which I was going to bring up but didn't... guy has multiple accounts, posts multiple times a day, and earns more than double the reward of anyone else on the platform. And yet he doesn't get downvoted, even if he rehashes the same topic a dozen times. He gets paid out 12 times for basically the exact same content slightly rehashed. No downvotes. Ever.
All I'm saying is that there's more to it then what is being represented.
It's very obvious.
When the DV logic put forth is actually applied and analyzed on chain, we can very clearly see that information is missing. There are clearly politics involved. Hive is more of a networking platform than a blogging platform. It's all politics.
It is not demoralizing to have a shitpost downvoted to zero.
Fire a warning shot.
Haha, we all laugh.
Shit post was shit.
It's demoralizing to have an entire week's worth of posts 100% downvoted by an x4 whale with absolutely zero indication why or when it will stop. Do I have to wait a week? A month? A year? Who knows! Guess we'll find out if I don't quit! Plenty of examples of people who were providing a net gain to the platform that quit because of this exact kind demoralization and chaos. Never a dull moment.
Incorrect. I have done it. But I get your point. Yes, agree. Not enough.
Do you like to help me, please?
Again. As I said multiple times. You and I communicate well. Better than most people who says they love me :) (its a very small list, eh!)
Help you downvote?
You cray.
I have considered a system for downvotes and turning toxic people against each other.
I'm actually kind of afraid of what might happen if something like gets built.
Weapons are neutral and can be used for good or evil.
Funny how the people who designed the A-Bomb didn't actually consider it would get used.
Also I don't think I've ever been told I communicate well.
World first.
Living the dream.
I'll second that, at least - you do communicate well! :-)
You're damn right on this one.
Yes, some of these downvotes go way beyond countering any single upvote, so it does seem unjust.