Downvotes Oh Noes!
Been a while since I've posted about downvotes, or "flags" as us old-schoolers used to call them. Ah, the flag wars. Ah, the memories. Good times. Such nostalgia.
Just to be clear usually the best thing to do when one gets downvoted is to ignore them. I mean maybe don't fully ignore them. Try to figure out why they happened and whatnot. But definitely don't make a scene and escalate the situation just because money is involved. Easier said than done obviously, people get very heated over these things. One time I downvoted someone for a single penny back in the day on a bogus comment they made and they totally lost their shit. It was... surprising to say the least. It's possible the act of doing it matters more than the dollar value of it on a certain level, but that's an entirely other argument.
My experience with downvotes like this is that they are almost always politically motivated and then they turn into ugly personal feuds. The person doing the downvoting will then throw up a smokescreen like, "Eh, don't worry about it this is just a 'reward disagreement'," even though that is clearly like... not the case at all. 90% of the time it's politically motivated and left-leaning. Conspiracy theory is often, shall we say, not appriciated.
Like the other day I said something about the CDC getting rid of COVID protocols in a very dismissive way. Could that be the thing that has lost me over $300 so far? A full week's worth of downvotes and not one single message saying what it's for. Is that acceptable behavior from someone who wields the power of 4 whales on this network?
Is it acceptable for one person, in all their wisdom, to cancel out the votes of a hundred other people thinking they know better? And then say nothing about it? Really? Is that how this game is played? Weird game.
It's also possible to get downvoted just because of the people upvoting the content. Can be a guilty by association thing. Get upvoted by too many people talking about conspiracy theory or whatnot? Oh well now you get a downvote, or zeroed out for the entire week, whatever. Shit happens.
In fact the last time I was getting downvoted like this it was because I was talking mad shit about people who downvote (so meta). Hm, yes... lets see if I can find it.
https://peakd.com/hive-167922/@edicted/reward-pool-abuse
ah there it is
Took a while, need to work on my database more.
This one post resulted in losing hundreds of dollars across many many posts. Is that reasonable? In fact I bet the memory of the situation is still there, so I'm still losing money from this post and I'm sure random other ones like it. It all feeds into the same "reward disagreement" smokescreen.
There are a lot of diminishing returns when it comes to downvotes. If someone asks me what my job security is like? Oh well actually it's terrible because there is this one guy who can just take away my entire income if he pushes a button. Add on top of that the volatility of crypto and all the blood in the streets, yikes! Basically zero job security in crypto across the board. Just ask those dozen exchanges that gambled with client money and went bankrupt and stole all the money to pay off their debt/leverage.
Wait, who runs this account again?
Is that right?
I don't know things.
Although if memory serves it's @azircon
It's also super fun to be downvoted by people who upvote you using the voting trains that these bots have invented. Hey @meno, you know you're downvoting my posts? You often upvote them. Weird.
https://peakd.com/leofinance/@edicted/posting-from-my-phone
downvotes started after this post
Enjoy the shitpost.
I guess your words really can be used you in this weird court of opinion!
Discord: Edicted#2356
... Ya know, just in case you want to explain your actions and make this a better platform rather than silently flexing and then acting like it's a great service to the network....
lol, wut?
@abh12345 what even is this?
Are you making a sexist joke about periods or what?
Oh, we have fun. Look at us.
It's like a fun little clue as to what's being talked about in the background.
Everyone likes a little mystery.
A bit of context
I really don't want to play the victim here. I'm not the victim. We're good. I would like to add more value to this network. That's what we all want, yeah? Same team.
I will admit that I have been slacking a bit. I'm in quite a bit of pain every day from a shoulder/back injury. Hate to admit it, but it does have an affect on my mood. Been extremely confrontational and volatile as of late. Just the other day I blew up in @themarkymark's face in Discord and called him a liar and a cheat for like no reason at all! I had to publicly apologize for that, which is something I normally wouldn't do. Trying to get back in line but. Not easy I tell ya.
It also makes my posts a bit more low effort. Sitting in this chair is... a chore.
But I think I'm done talking about this for the day. Don't really have the energy for it. And speaking about diminishing returns, why put effort into a post when an x4 whale is 100% downvoting them with zero reason given (weird chicken/egg scenario considering the downvotes could have been issued for low effort). You'd think $300 (more like $1000 in the last 12 months) downvotes against a prominent member of this community would be worth like... a comment? I guess that's too much to ask? Ah, it's not though. Passive aggressive comment is passive aggressive I suppose. Old habits die hard.
Conclusion
It's easy to forgive downvotes on posts about speculation and random bullshitting about market movements, but if I'm going to be x4 whale blanket-downvoted on every post based on some unknown mystery trigger? Clearly not a "reward disagreement". At least last time it was obvious what the trigger was. This time not so much.
Well I'm already thinking of ways to exponentially escalate this situation to extremely toxic levels, so I guess I just need to shut the fuck up for now and take a little break. Nobody needs that.
PS
@azircon has amazing fucking timing... hot damn
He reminds me that the first strategy to getting downvoted is to stop self-upvoting... lol... was thinking about that last night... totally forgot about it.
Ha, also just because I defended jrcornel on a downvote issue... don't read too much into that. We have some very interesting conversations in Discord, but we haven't talked since...
April 26th apparently... and I'm pretty sure he dumped 100% of all his CUB holdings and we are just not on the same level when it comes to crypto. He's just trying to make money and I actually want to be a part of this new future that gets built. The money is irrelevant... or at least it should be... lol because this is a post about downvotes and losing money. Pobodies Nerfect.
And yes, I think I will stop upvoting my own shit (forever). That's a good plan. but also I take issue with "earning $100 plus in Hive" because honestly Hive shouldn't be measured in dollars. There are posts from two years ago they show that I made less than $20 but are worth over $100 today. What happens if Hive goes x100 or some shit? Gonna downvote everything because it's making too much in dollars? It's a weird issue. Can't stop people from pricing things in the standard unit of account I suppose. Blah blah blah off topic.
Must have hacked my computer and looked at my post before I wrote it.
I guess I just got served.
Look at me getting all worked up over nothing.
Such tilt.
Lesson learned.
Posted Using LeoFinance Beta
Yes, your current 7 days projected reward is just about right in my opinion
And yes, I know it is not measured in US Dollars. Believe me, I know that :)
Oh nice what should I buy with my $50?
You play any interesting video games lately?
JK it's time to flip all my payouts to 100% powered up.
Get that HBD out of here.
Indeed.
On a different note: Physical pain is challenging. Please take care of yourself, as you said, we are part of the same team.
I suffer from many sport injuries that I have accumulated during my youth. I have a torn right anterior scalene muscle/ligament. The muscle that holds the shoulder to your neck. Also both my achilles tendons are torn for years.
I have learned to manage and live with pain without any medication. I mostly do stretches, exercise and acupuncture. Together, with the help of these procedures I can lead a normal life.
Please take care of your pain, there are remedies available. Indeed it can affect your mood. Have a good day!
That's very good advice.
I used to do yoga.
It helped a lot.
Need to get back on that physical therapy track for sure.
I've always thought about acupuncture but I'm not the biggest fan of needles.
Is it worth it? Seems like it might be worth it.
I was skeptical myself. Its no magic, and improvement is slow. It did help me a lot. Last December, my heel was so bad that I could barely walk. I was limping. Now after 8-9 months, I can't say my pain is completely gone, but I can walk normally for long distances. I am a field geologist, and I love to walk in the bush all my life. Acupuncture allowed me to get back to it.
Hard to find a good one though. Please consult your Chinese friends if you have any nearby.
will do
@azircon For the last couple of months (8-10), I'm dealing with something quite similar. Currently visiting the physio, but he kind of told me I was a bit too late to sound the alarm (hooray for low self-judgment regarding health and pain :D). The attachment point at my heel spur is super sensitive as if I'm stepping into a piece of glass every time I make a step. Did you have something similar (and did acupuncture help)?
acupuncture did help.
I was "cured" of plascenta previa during my second pregnancy with acupuncture. Saved me from three months of bed rest.
I was very thankful.
Posted Using LeoFinance Beta
Every time I start thinking about taking my blogging "more seriously" on Hive I think about people like you.
Seems like I put the right amount of effort in.
Posted Using LeoFinance Beta
When will the whale experiment commence again?
"Low effort" mentality has no place in the cryptocurrency world imo. That's part of the old money paradigm that we're trying to evolve out of.
I used to be targeted by a downvoter who faithfully showed up to downvote my every single day. As you said, it's best to ignore it, and I just faithfully kept posting what I like to post every day, and lo and behold, they finally got bored and moved along. Mind you their downvote was for pennies or a fraction of a penny.
We lost @kennyskitchen who was a really big part of the eco system here for me and a lot of other people because he was getting downvotes that cost him a lot of money. That would be so, so upsetting if you had come to a place where you were earning really decent money on here. It's something I hope we can solve. I heard a Native American teacher (deveenhant_dudawanup on Tik Tok) talking about capitalism a couple weeks ago, and he said we will never be rid of it as long as there are people who want to be on the top of a pyramid and be more important than others. Something for us to think about here on Hive as I think we're birthing a new economic system which will mean a different way of living in the world. Do we want some people to wield more power than others? If so, for what reason? If not, for what reason. These questions will have far-reaching implications I think. Indeed, the pyramid is certainly present here on Hive, but I would argue that people who are against it are probably here for the precise motivation of they themselves getting to the top of a pyramid and getting rich. The pyramid is deeply built into everything that we are, and we've certainly brought that into the basis of cryptocurrency. Is that really what we want? If we continue with the pyramid, will cryptocurrency indeed be a much better system than the one we currently have in place now? Important things for us to think about.
That is particularly apt.
Native American thinking is completely different than capitalism.
We need to see a return to those ideologies with crypto.
At the end of the day these downvote scenarios are trivially easy to remedy on a theoretical level. If the network as a whole wanted them to stop, then they would stop. We may need to build a bit more infrastructure in order for that to actually happen though.
Posted Using LeoFinance Beta
And outside of the old tired right vs left or capitalism vs socialism dichotomy that I think we need to free our minds from in order to truly create something fresh. These old paradigms have been so wrought with propaganda over the last century that none of us can truly see straight when it comes to that paradigm. Perhaps it's time for us to learn how the oldest cultures in the world operate/d and take notes.
I'm not even gonna read this, but its amusing nonetheless!
Mob Rule vs Stake Rule, Kyc?
@azircon can you elaborate the issue you take with self upvoting?
two things:
That said, typically I don't have this much time to engage in discussion. But today you found me during a free time, so I will explain.
You shouldn't self-upvote. It is frowned upon in the community. Why? My upvote is worth $15, if I self upvote 10 posts/day. I will make $150/day everyday. Would you like that?
Accounts like blocktrades single vote is $130. If he self-votes would you like that? If top 50 accounts self-votes, then we can take out the entire reward-pool and no reward will be left for you. Would you like that?
FWIW, I think there's a huge difference between self-upvoting one post a day and going full haejin and self-upvoting 10 posts/day. Never go full haejin.
exactly there is a balance
not with azricon, he is absolute ;)
It's not something that I have an opinion on. The issue would be that a person who holds a lot of power on the blockchain would be using it to give more and more to themselves. I can see how that could potentially create a very big problem. I think that if cryptocurrency and blockchain are to grow to a point where they have a very big impact on people's finances, and if as much as I think will be run on a blockchain in the future is on the blockchain in the future, then I think steps should be taken to prevent power from getting into too few hands and to prevent the abuse of that power. Cryptocurrency I think is built with decentralization at its very basis which is at its core about power not being centralized. So I think Hive would do well to build a system and implement policies on the blockchain to prevent this. With that, it would seem to me that the inability to self upvote should be implemented on the blockchain. I would love to hear anyone who's reading this' thoughts on the topic.
Edit: Also, I'm confused by this:
Didn't you downvote OP, and he has screenshots of you telling him you take issue with him self upvoting. Can you clarify what you meant by above?
I did. I said I do not self upvote.
Fork off.
Go fork it if you don't like it.
It's something I've been bragging about on Hive for years. This feature shouldn't even exist.
BRB gonna go thread instead
Posted Using LeoFinance Beta
nice hat :D
You can market that..
You want moarrr?
I got more. Much moar!
Hmmmm.... this was an enlightening one..
Never knew whales could get downvoted but I think @azircon ddid a great job in informing you.
Ypu also did a great thing by accepting your fault and acting accordingly.
Its always nice to see when everyone are doing whats best for the block chain...
This just reminded me of bernie and haejin
lol haejin and bernie were the best example of a flag war
such a crazy time
I would like to see a total breakdown post of this piece of blockchain history 😂
every downvote is reward disagreement for various reasons
Yeah it's just such a blanket statement.
Kind of the point I suppose.
Especially when there's no rewards.
I like the idea as Hive as defi. Get stake... earn of stake. Anything goes. Nobody cares on CUB that you are earning more CUB off of your CUB... that is the entire point of staking. Old school "Hive is still about blogging" mentality won't go away and little kids on the playground have no choice but to bow to the bully.
Edit but read azircon's comment about 10 self votes a day... that is not good either.
Disagree with arguments! We are not here to argue, but of course we are not here to undermine each other either! Unfortunately the problem is some big accounts (in hp or influence in many profiles) who think they are Gods!
which arguments do you disagree with?
Sorry for my English, i totally agree with your writings on your post! I want to sai with my comment, that we are year to interact nicely, not another competitive social! Even if we disagree, we can discuss about it, not just a not productive downvote without even a comment!
I hope its all good now - I hope so... I dont really like "Downvotes posts"
Maybe you should've cited sources for your pics?
My balls.
!lolz
lolztoken.com
He told me to stop going to those places.
Credit: benthomaswwd
@baah, I sent you an $LOLZ on behalf of @antisocialist
The LOLZ Tribe is here! Stake your LOLZ now to earn curation rewards and continue using the !LOLZ command. Please read our latest update for more information.
(1/1)
Same thing happened to me a few months back when azircon showed up on a few of my lower effort posts. I was frustrated at first, but now it very well may have been the best thing possible. It pushed me to try different types of content and get in a better habit of posting.
Plus I have stopped self voting and believe it or not my rewards have increased.
I think you should try to find a way to turn all of this into something positive. You wouldn’t be one of the top rewarded accounts for so long if people didn’t enjoy what you have to say. I’ve read many of your posts and you have a lot of wisdom and you’re funny.
Don’t let this get you done, let it make you even better than you already are.
Good luck with that shoulder/back pain. I used to have that issue, but luckily no more. A few recommendations for that:
All of those should help to improve your pain, unless you have something majorly wrong, but hopefully something like surgery won’t be necessary.
I just want to say that writing is self expression and while we share so that others can appreciate, we also share to express what's in us. I argue that we should try to avoid fitting a mold of what is popular, will make us the most money, and what others consider appropriate or valuable. Azircon shouldn't dictate what you share. Length doesn't equal quality or effort. Some of my posts are short, but my words are chosen very carefully and intentionally. However, I also think the "effort" put into a post is irrelevant. There's a lot of outdated industrial revolution era thinking here on Hive I'm seeing lately. Let's lighten up and let this be a place where people can express themselves and their genuine self expression will be found by people who appreciate it. There's improving our creative output, and then there's molding it to fit an outside standard. I think we need to avoid the latter lest we become all the other nauseating platforms. Self expression is self expression. A lot of really old school capitalist industrial revolution-esque paradigm on here. Let's move beyond that.
I don't feel like I'm being held back in any way right now. I think I had gotten lazy and needed a wake-up call. Now I'm pushing myself harder than I have in a long time.
I do think there is some outdated thinking going on, but there is also a lot of good too. I choose to focus on the positive aspects and try my best to find the positive in the negative.
Damn bro, that sucks about your back/shoulder pain. Trust me, I know all too well about constant back pain. What has helped me the most... I invested in an inversion table. Holy shit.
The difference I feel after hanging upside down for 2 and a half minutes is life changing. I do it once or twice a day depending on my discomfort level. I also sit a lot. Like way too much. So I added a lower lumbar support to my office chair.
Take care fren, I quite enjoyed your shitpost.
Posted Using LeoFinance Beta
My dad used to have one of those when I was a kid.
I'd use it just for fun.
I can imagine it would help.
Well guess what? If you were writing for a publication in the US and you got paid $100 per post (which I agree we should not be measuring in USD) then you would be a shittily paid writer.
That's write (yes, I know I used the wrong right).
Freelancing jobs that pay less than $100 USD per article on something you have "expert" level experience on is a shitty paid job.
Unless you're "mommy blogging" then you can bare your soul about your four c-sections and talk about tandem breastfeeding your twins and how you stay alive after all that and then you get paid "real crap" money.
SO I guess your downvoters only want you to earn Mommy Blogging levels of income on your expert levels of crypto.
Doesn't sound like a win.
Posted Using LeoFinance Beta
Expert level of crypto. Lmao!
I actually agree with that comment. Almost nobody here earns as much as edicted while the posts are better categorized as entertainment than some sort of wellspring of solid knowledge. They are good entertainment to be sure but so are the posts of many other authors.
Well guess what, entertainment is expensive too.
Also, entertainment for you is knowledge for others.
I was commenting on the claim that edicted is a crypto expert who should be paid well just because of that. I wouldn't pay for any investment advice he gives, although he does have some interesting insights sometimes. I like his posts because they're funny and structured well enough for me to have the patience to read from start to finish.
The sort of crypto expertise when it comes to investment advice that I would consider paying for is such that it is based on research that is fresh enough to be actionable and whose author has a proven track record.
The distribution of rewards on Hive is a zero-sum game. Each day the blockchain prints a certain number of coins as author rewards. Each stakeholder has the right to remove rewards from any post he/she from a subjective point of view considers over-rewarded relative to other active posts, which is what over-rewarded cannot but mean as the distribution is a zero-sum game.
The chain owes exactly nothing in terms of author rewards to anybody. I think there are not many authors here who've been around the block who have never been downvoted. If someone is very popular, it is unlikely that their posts will be DV'd to anywhere near zero. Just look at the pending rewards of this post, for example.
You know what?
This has been a fun discussion and all, but I'm going back to threading.
Go see my threads under #metzli they are super entertaining and deserve lots of upvotes. Go give them to me. Thank you and LOL.
Lolol! No qualms with vote begging. The entitled who suck up, shamelessly, run away at the first sign of disagreement or rebuke, just excellent examples of utterly detestable individuals bravo, from expert at crypto to "entertainment is expert level", to toodles. Suck up all those votes, it'll never be enough for self deluded "connoisseurs" and ass sucking clowns alike.
Dang. I'm not sure if you're calling me names or giving me a compliment but I love myself so much that I'll take it as the latter.
Posted Using LeoFinance Beta
We all do it for the luls, some do it for everyone, some only for themselves, and some suck dick for up votes.
Thank you for your witness vote!
Have a !BEER on me!
To Opt-Out of my witness beer program just comment STOP below
View or trade
BEER.Hey @metzli, here is a little bit of
BEERfrom @isnochys for you. Enjoy it!Learn how to earn FREE BEER each day by staking your
BEER.but on a serious note, downvotes always get people so worked up. I know someone who held a personal grudge with someone he barely knew. He vowed to pay the person back in his own coins. Now thats where it all begins. He didnt want to consider the reason why he was downvoted, he just felt he didnt deserve the downvote.
Thank you for noticing us! I learned a lot from this post. We don't self-upvote, and only add content that is original to us first over at our site, but maybe we should only post those here? We've written articles in support of HIVE and we add the link to HIVE in our footer to encourage people to sign up here. We also have an auto-link set up with SoMee as well, where we've been active nearly since the beginning. We also try to engage here as much as time allows by upvoting and commenting on other posts, so we do try and contribute to the ecosystem. In any event, we can all do better, thank you again!
https://peakd.com/health/@activistpost/pandemic-lies-infect-the-un-and-the-us
Gonna take a shot in the dark and say that this is the one that did you in.
How dare you question the mainstream narrative of the pandemic.
Pretty common source of contention around here.
I was fully canceled by a certain someone years ago (unnamed) for talking trash about mask 'science' and mandates and whatnot.
Also getting upvoted by Xeldal can catch auto downvotes.
Fun times.
Interesting, it's something we've covered before. I didn't think there was such a mainstream narrative interest here. We don't even mind legitimate downvotes, especially if there is well-reasoned comment attached to it. We'll keep posting here, for information's sake, but there has to be a more equitable way to measure what the community values, and maybe a different way to calculate the weight of a given vote. I just hate to see people leave who have been here for a long time and who are trying to contribute to something (we thought) was better than Facebook, Twitter, et al. Thank you for taking the time to respond! Please keep us posted on any other improvements or - I hate to say it - somewhere else that isn't quite as manipulated.
The problem here is that we haven't reached consensus about how to decentralize downvoting. Obviously this is a problem that fixes itself given a better token distribution (no more one person canceling out 100 other votes), but I think there are more democratic ways to regulate the situation and make sure it doesn't get out of control... I have a few ideas but... I can't build it unless I have employees/devs. Maybe one day.
Have you seen any dev discussions here about addressing the issue? Otherwise, we'll have to hope you get your own resources :-)
I am responsible for many of the DV on your post. I am personally telling you directly, it is NOT about the content. It is about the same reason Edicted is downvoted. The net rewards gotten high.
On top the account tdvtv is bindly posting 18-20 posts a day and xeldal and resonator blindly upvoting them. If that continues. Not just me, many others will DV you.
Also, I know @edicted for a long time. He likes to speculate. I appreciate that. However, most of us here knows, the amount of speculation that he does, at least some of that bound to fall flat. It is a statistical certainty :)
@resonator does not blindly upvote any posts - all posts are manually reviewed before upvoting.
In that case, the relative % of vote matters. Perhaps that can be adjusted...
Community can view the voting pattern, it is public
https://hivetasks.com/@resonator
and Xeldal's voting pattern
https://hivetasks.com/@xeldal
Compared to that, Curangel's upvote pattern..
https://hivetasks.com/@curangel
Community can check and decide.
The voting pattern for @resonator is in response to the content on the network. The main thing we are looking for when curating is posts that are aimed at identifying and solving real world problems. There are many problems we face that are avoided or heavily mis-represented by mainstream narrators. Anyone wanting to receive substantial upvotes from resonator can start by focusing on the real world problems that are not receiving enough attention and/or by providing information that is hard to come by on the controlled web 2.0 platforms.
We think that by far the most powerful utility that Hive currently has to offer is it's immutability and so this naturally leads to promoting content that makes use of the free speech vehicle that Hive was born to be.
If there were substantially more content creators on Hive producing content that aligned to meeting the needs of humanity and our own goals, then our vote spread would be greater. As it is we spend several hours every day reading many posts in order to place the votes that we do. The issue of any perceived limited vote spread is not a lack of effort from our part, but a lack of content that fits our criteria. This is partially because of previous downvoting rampages on this network which caused numerous content creators who are oriented towards topics that revolve around 'improving life' to leave Hive.
Voting on Hive is based on subjective preferences and it is healthy that people have different interests and support a broad spectrum of types of content. However, in order to achieve the noble goal of voting for a wider spectrum of content creators, we will look at ways to inspire more content creators to produce content that meets our voting criteria.
n.b. You can see from our vote spread that we, in fact, do not blindly vote tdvtv as they don't even appear in the data.
If that is all that you care for just decline rewards.
It is already immutable. I will totally support you then.
Resonator rarely posts, so declining rewards would not achieve anything significant.
To clarify for you, the comment about immutability is in reference to the marketing of Hive - there is a large potential market for uncensored social media and immutability is a key selling point for Hive. Immutability does not negate the post reward mechanism that all Hive users can benefit from. On the contrary, these features were designed from the beginning to compliment each other and to both serve as selling points for Steem/Hive that help the network effect to amplify.
I am not clear what form your support would take if all of the accounts we voted on were declining rewards, but since we have no way of controlling them it is an irrelevant point. If you can more clearly articulate your goals in this conversation we will be happy to take on board constructive suggestions that serve the growth of Hive and the user experience of the community.
I am sorry for not being more elaborate.
It is not about you, it is about the people or accounts you vote. The problem from my, and our hive community members, point of view is dual.
Sometimes, due to auto-vote, some account can get substantial amount of rewards consistently. This is not content creators fault per say. As they didn't set up auto-vote or stike a deal (although in the past that has happened) But if they want they CAN do something about it. They can post less frequently (as many veteran hivers do). Or they CAN decline rewards (just like edicted did on his latest post, Kudos to @edicted !)
Second, the curator, you, can address the problem as well. You can potentially skip certain content creator manually even if their content seem to fit your criteria, or vote them less than you thought you might, just to adjust for normalization.
That is good curation. Spreading the rewards far and wide, even if it doesn't match your criteria 100%. Again this is not about my world or political view or yours. I am a very practical and factual person. I view it flatly from the reward or 'money' point of view. My goal is to normalize the rewards as much as practical.
I see. I am interested to understand your motivation and rationale for aiming to limit the capacity for curators to reward the content they prefer, in favor of a kind of averaging effect where all creators receive a standardized (or 'normalized') payout. Perhaps I am misunderstanding your goals here.
If all curators based their voting not on the content of the posts, but instead aimed to reward content creators who were not receiving any upvotes, wouldn't we completely break the essence of Hive - proof of brain? Wouldn't that completely negate the motivational mechanisms that Steem/Hive are based on? Wouldn't we also inspire people to simply create multiple accounts that churn out valueless content in order to receive upvotes?
there is a big gap between 'valueless content' and 'highly over-rewarded content'. There is a middle class. This middle class is what most of the curators are missing. Look around, and you will see them.
I am here for a long time. I know what hive is, please believe me. I call this my home. You are welcome, and thank you. That is all the time I have today.
PS.
We are handling 'valueless content' far better than 'highly over-rewarded' content, thanks to multiple anti-abuse projects. Like Hivewatchers, and Hive-DR and several other individuals are accounts who have downvoted some of these posts.
Total amount of downvote issued is insignificant compared to total amount of upvote issued on hive. This is a verifiable fact. Anyone can check it. Yet, multiple people have written posts about 'abuse of DV' however, I am yet to see a post of 'abuse of upvote' in any recent memory. You guys talk about 'alternatives'. Don't you find it funny?
OK, there is a lot to digest here, but we greatly appreciate the interaction and explanation from your point of view. We're so focused on the content that apparently we haven't accounted for the other elements (mostly) beyond our control. I'll discuss with the crew here and try to get a better handle on how to proceed. I'll just say that from our perspective, we have been greatly defunded by Google, et al. so naturally we are seeking revenue, but if we can do this in a better way for the HIVE community, then we'll aim for that. Much appreciated!
Thank you also for taking the time to discuss this. We're still digesting this entire thread, but we do appreciate the interaction and support!
Thanks for supporting Hive with your content.
Hive is a truly decentralized and dynamic, community driven project - so it is important for the community to get clear on what we need and to work together to create it. The system is complicated and many details are not obvious, so people often have different ideas about the best strategies for success, often based on misunderstandings or differences in perception regarding what Hive is and what a successful growth strategy for Hive looks like.
Add to this the common trend of people seeking short term financial gain over long term growth and also the potential for bad actor involvement from competing networks... and we have the recipe for a spicy burrito! ;)
Very well said!
20 posts a day... What the fuck is that an AI? I sometimes have 3... that hardly earn $30 altogether and I feel like a spammer doing that...
Wasn't about the content, but if people are going to throw blind/dumb downvotes around then they shouldn't be surprised if they get some back after tolerating a few. I for one curate when I downvote and fwiw I don't agree with big downvotes that curangel seems to like to cast neither, have had to counter a few of those in the past. I guess they're reasoning is hitting a few authors hard is better than many overrewarded authors soft for longer periods which I'm not a fan of as it causes more drama and unfairness than necessary.
Honestly zeroing out a single shitpost to zero is all the wake-up call I need.
Like, that's funny, we can all laugh about it.
Zeroing out a week's worth of posts all at once is just demoralizing and counterproductive.
But whatever, live and learn I guess.
Please don't be demoralized.
I hope you can check your account now, I don't think I have done any dent to your rewards :)
Someone once said to me, and I really like it
you do you, universe will do universe
The person who said that is my friend (good friend, no joke), and he countered majority of the DV.
Cheers!
I assume you must be talking about Matt?
Cool guy.
You seem interesting as well.
Which is funny because so many people make you out to be the fucking Devil.
That's what I get for fraternizing with churchgoers I guess.
I have like three reasons to be demoralized at the moment.
One of these days I'll get my shit together, eh?
But also it's weird for you to say you enjoy my content when I don't really recall you ever upvoting anything I've ever written. Accounts like @altleft and @newsflash upvote and downvote my shit all the time, which is super interesting. My good content gets a good reward and my bad content gets a bad reward. That's the goal, yeah? I haven't added up the numbers but it feels like a bit of an overall wash when looking at those two accounts. If someone upvotes me for $20 then downvotes me for $20... hard to complain.
I think at the end of the day I'm mostly annoyed at myself for not grinding out more code and figuring out how to build some real value around here. That's a 'me' problem I suppose.
Yes, because I have almost never seen anything that you have written below $50-70 range. NEVER in recent memory. Right?
@slobberchops and @meesterboom are both my close friends. I enjoy their writing a lot! I rarely can vote them, for the same reason. And they can easily farm auto-vote, but check them out. They don't!
What can I say Dude. You can easily see all this and make sense out of it. I am no Monster. I don't have any vested interest other than this little platform to thrive. I have downvoted Khal when he was farming to pay for whatsup. He stopped. I treat everyone with respect and call spade a spade.
WUT!
That means you're slightly younger than me huh?
I just missed the Pokemon craze.
One day, Pokemon on the blockchain.
Prepare to meet your doom.
Gotta catch um all.
Quite right, I'm doing very well here!
I just wish there was more stuff to do around here.
Need to be giving more users more opportunities.
Easier said than done.
Play Splinterlands.
Write codes for them.
Write codes for Splinterlands data that benefit gamers.
It's actually embarrassing how little I interact with Splinterlands considering the circumstances.
Need to get back to it and buy some more SPS as well.
Something I said?
lol. This is such a weird day.
LOL. I was trying to unmute you!
You can talk to people that you have muted?
I've never muted anyone I have no idea how it works.
Just takes posts off your feed or what?
Oh yes! Its mostly a useless feature. But it helps me a bit. All it does that it blocks the ping.
Since you write a lot (I mean you have your moments) in conversation, I had an encounter with you earlier, so to do some work, I had to mute you so that I didn't get any ping.
But I still read and looked around your stuff as I saw fit and my time permits. But you stayed muted.
Now that I am writing to you and others on this ridiculous post of yours for hundreds of minutes, it is more efficient to unmute you.
There you have it!
Enough fun for today. Got to go home!
Nothing guarantees more engagement than writing a post on downvotes.
Is it... productive engagement?
Arguable.
No such thing as bad press, I guess.
I will DV this post right before payout though. It won't be zero, not even close. I hope you are cool with it :)
Also, I will see what I can do about taskmaster. Thank you for pointing that out.
To be fair taskmaster is a bit of a tryhard.
I'd say he puts in more effort than the vast majority.
Which is why I didn't really bring it up until the name got thrown around.
Troll confirmed!
Alright that's enough excitement for one day.
Exactly!
The 'unmute' button is close to follow button, and I have a very fast mouse....which is sad, because I am only getting older and slower.
Ah well one day we'll hack the human genome and all be immortal amirite?
What could possibly go wrong?
Source: Dalz Article
Appreciated Acid! As you correctly said, it is not about the content, but about the normalization of rewards.
If Edicted, of all people, can say he is demoralized about rewards, I don't know what to say! He is top 10 rewarded author on hive, discounting 2 accounts of taskmaster! And null. Hope my math is right!
It's mostly the effects of autovotes like usual, not many can just say no to them by forfeiting part of the rewards or just not forcing themselves to post daily. As you've mentioned when there's also self-votes on top of top authors you really start to wonder if the focus is just the rewards there. At least when they've been here long enough to know how easily they could trail leo.voter or other curators to put their stake passively to use and distribute it wider.
Hm speaking of taskmaster... which I was going to bring up but didn't... guy has multiple accounts, posts multiple times a day, and earns more than double the reward of anyone else on the platform. And yet he doesn't get downvoted, even if he rehashes the same topic a dozen times. He gets paid out 12 times for basically the exact same content slightly rehashed. No downvotes. Ever.
All I'm saying is that there's more to it then what is being represented.
It's very obvious.
When the DV logic put forth is actually applied and analyzed on chain, we can very clearly see that information is missing. There are clearly politics involved. Hive is more of a networking platform than a blogging platform. It's all politics.
It is not demoralizing to have a shitpost downvoted to zero.
Fire a warning shot.
Haha, we all laugh.
Shit post was shit.
It's demoralizing to have an entire week's worth of posts 100% downvoted by an x4 whale with absolutely zero indication why or when it will stop. Do I have to wait a week? A month? A year? Who knows! Guess we'll find out if I don't quit! Plenty of examples of people who were providing a net gain to the platform that quit because of this exact kind demoralization and chaos. Never a dull moment.
Incorrect. I have done it. But I get your point. Yes, agree. Not enough.
Do you like to help me, please?
Again. As I said multiple times. You and I communicate well. Better than most people who says they love me :) (its a very small list, eh!)
Help you downvote?
You cray.
I have considered a system for downvotes and turning toxic people against each other.
I'm actually kind of afraid of what might happen if something like gets built.
Weapons are neutral and can be used for good or evil.
Funny how the people who designed the A-Bomb didn't actually consider it would get used.
Also I don't think I've ever been told I communicate well.
World first.
Living the dream.
I'll second that, at least - you do communicate well! :-)
You're damn right on this one.
Yes, some of these downvotes go way beyond countering any single upvote, so it does seem unjust.
You may as well join Bitcoin myk where downvotes don't take your money.
I'm about to get a ton of delegated hive and downvote you too and many others since you all so afraid of that
Posted Using LeoFinance Beta
Interesting strategy. So you're looking to do things that make people afraid? Going for a rule-by-fear angle on opt-in governance structures seems like a non starter. I'm going to assume you're joking but it's hard to tell with you.
Here's the thing: I have a very high reputation on Hive.
I can't even imaging building up an even better reputation somewhere else.
The value of my reputation is priceless.
It can't be bought and has to be grinded out over years.
But you already knew that.
I'm not joking. I mean isn't it already a fear culture? People afraid they'll lose money if they disagree right? I want to remove that fear from them. Desensitize them to it. I agree with this penalty system but would be better if the money you stole was put directly in community members hands. Why give another whale a chance to steal it.
Posted Using LeoFinance Beta
Yeah you obviously are joking because you're not going to do it... then even if you do it you do it you're joking because you've already stated how counter-productive that would be. You're joking either way. I imagine this is a common position for you to be in.
It actually may be a good idea as people care about money. It's a healthy fear that exposes flaws I'm the downvotes system and we need that. It encourages change
Posted Using LeoFinance Beta
I'm not worried about downvotes or rep score because the downvotes system has no true oversight. It's bullshit. A new guy came to Bitcoin myk today trying to abuse our system and trying to do Sybil attacks
My last post shows how our democratic, egalitarian system handled it and nope it's not like the downvotes system lol
Posted Using LeoFinance Beta
i had no clue brother... ill fix it right away
It's happened like at least 4 times that I've noticed.
Never said anything because it was whatever, but figured you didn't even know lol.
it should not happen again brother... sorry about that. I was following a dv trail by curangel
Think nothing of it except the the fact that it's an interesting dynamic of DPOS and delegating responsibility. How many times will ppl on dpos delegate away power only to have it used in an unintended way? Also interesting that even though this is the case, not having delegations would be even worse. Can't throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Honestly one way or the other I agree with you that at times down vote are used in a more malicious way at times, it is very bad to see that it serves as a means of oppressing one another, maybe as a result of conflict in opinion.
More need to be looked into that structure
It's circular, with recently halting upvoting yourself, you've blessed 🙏 me with upvotes,... Perfect timing too because I've recently hit Rock bottom as far as spending every dime of my own monies... And embezzled monies from hextech!!! Pitchforks? Heaviest 2ltc on the internet... I got a debt to pay back,.. so these upvotes I've, again, been blessed 🙏 with, again, will help me pay off the loan to myself from one third of myself... LoL. I mean, blatant theft from a web3 business!! Who made me accountant again? CFO? LoL...
Downvote or flags possibly has some kind of positive reasons why it's allowed here on hive and in some other places but people being people always use an opportunity wrongly just to put someone down who is flying and making success but ignoring sounds great but maybe those of who're really emotional such could get into us mostly when checked very well you haven't offended anyone but freedom of speech can't be killed just because I am down voted.
I saw it like twice on my post I felt bad but not so bad because the weight of the down voted is low.
Don't attack others, do your thing and impact to your generation.
This has inspired me to finish a post regarding rewards. Watch this space!
Cg
well look, a good engaging post you created here instead of the usual ****post 😉
hope you get better soon!
@azircon
Does any post deserve to receive more than $100 rewards?
Because I see quite a lot of posts that receive more than that in the past week.
Because a lot of votes are auto votes some authors always get really high rewards.
And not all of them are downvoted.
I think it would be fair if there was a max reward for posts. But I don't know if that is possible.
It would be even better that there would be a max upvote for automated votes. Manual curation would make the distribution of rewards more fair I think.
But I don't know if this is technically possible (or even desirable).
It's just my 2 cents. I'm don't want to deny anyone it's rewards 😊
Manual doesn’t beat automated. There’s lots of people who do both and it wouldn’t be different to have a cap. I have limited time in my day so I don’t have time to curate so I follow vote trails to make it easier and use a couple manual votes to make sure I don’t get to 100% voting power.
As well a cap on rewards is a bad idea as well because you don’t know who’s doing what with the payout you receive. Some people it could feed their family for a week if they had a great post, some will gamble it away and others will reinvest in hive. Who are we to say what the max pay out is when there’s so many things to consider? I sure as hell know that’s a recipe for disaster.
Posted Using LeoFinance Beta
It is an arbitrary number. I just use it as a basic screen. Yes there are many posts which gets more than that. In 90% of the cases they are not worth it. For example this one.
However, unfortunately we don't have enough DV power to deal will all disagreement on rewards. Edicted here posts 1 post/day and they all get rewarded heavily regardless of content. If an author get 1 post that randomly gets $100 in a week, I will have no issue with that. Again, this is my personal opinion and it is NOT a popular opinion. The main reason is, people, even experienced and long term authors, fail to grasp the concept that 'projected' earning are NOT yours until 7th day at payout. So there is no question of 'loss'. 99% of hivers DO NOT earn as much as edicted does. Is it fair to question that? Is is fair for edicted to give some out for the community? Do something for others?
Are these valid question? Or is it better to vote up a post about DV to $200? Let community and you, the friendly moose, be the judge of that :)
But... who cares? There's a pretty lop-sided reward pool for any of the longer-time big-name users.
Dude tosses out 100% weight votes to smaller users regularly, and has always been supportive and returns comments in any interaction I've ever had with him.
It's not his fault he gets a lot of auto-votes, that's not something he can control, and honestly? Self-voting for the like 4$ feels like a non-issue to me. There's tons of big accounts that self-vote all the time and nobody says shit to them.
Do I think more folks should get better rewards? Shit yeah! I would love to see more folks getting 30-40$ posts than a lot of concentrated 100+ posts to a minor set of users, but, end of the day @edicted supports Hive and Hivians and it feels janky as fuck to mass downvote him for being recognized and rewarded with how much he comments and posts (generally) fairly high-quality content.
After all, isn't that the whole goal?
We punish success and wonder why folks don't adopt lol wtf are you whales thinking.
I have a long discussion with edicted, publicly, right here on this post. I am quite certain he doesn't agree with you.
Consider the fact. Please try to use the word 'fuck' in moderation. Its just polite.
Fair enough, I didn't read the entire thread as it's a ton of comments. If there's been an understanding made already then I'm sorry for reviving an already ended argument.
dv=rewards disagreement , learnt a new one . Mhmm!
Sorry that it happened to you Ed. Hope that the pain would go away very soon ™ Keep your head high and keep doing your thing because we need you here at Leo.
Sending loves & tokens ❤️
Posted Using LeoFinance Beta
I sometimes feel lucky for being so "modestly rewarded"...
Oh, you know what I find weird? The fact that a blog post containing a bunch of farm pics and some text talking mundane farm shit is getting more curation than posts tackling covid pandemic exposing truths. I guess at the end of the day crypto people are just normal people. That's why we care so much about crypto prices and so little about disruption and crooked government policies circumvention...
Keep up with your regular hiving, you're doing a fantastic job.
I for one am glad we have arbiters of content that decide a ceiling of worth. We wouldn't want to attract anyone here who would even think about making more than $100 on a post (an arbitrary number I just pulled out of my ass).
We also wouldn't want people to power up more hive than that to reward the people they like, because that would be bad. I say limiting ourselves and expectations to mediocrity is the best approach, and I know there are big stakeholders here that agree with me.
Gonna get hard to downvote everything under $100 when Hive goes x1000.
It's a dirty job but somebody gots to do it; we gotta try!
You also forgot to mention that it doesn't matter that I had to write hundreds of quality posts that basically got rewarded nothing just to get where I am today. This is a rite of passage, and should definitely not be factored in to any downvote scenario. Quality content that doesn't get upvoted should be ignored but low quality content should always be downvoted to zero. Because at the end of the day Hive is a network that should only allocate inflation to blog posts, and only the good ones (of people who already have established followings). Best strat is best. #GOAT
No Ron, there is no one setting the max reward. Please don't misdirect. There have been a lot of conversation. Please try and keep up ;)
So you're saying "disagreement with rewards" isn't a thing? And that disagreement isn't an arbitrary number that individual stakeholders pull out of their ass?
"disagreement with rewards" is a thing, a very common thing.
but an individial stakeholder doesn't pull any number out of their ass.
go do your thing Ron. Make yourself useful :)
See you in Vegas. Be nice to me when you see me in person :)
Cheers!
No one seems to be complaining about arbitrary upvotes
There can be an overlap between political and other motivations. I like conspiracy theories, read/listen/watch them often and follow conspiracy theory accounts on twitter. But I don't think it is particularly beneficial to Hive to reward them very heavily. For one thing, many of them have their own monetization and are multichannel/reposts and would post anyway. For another when we are overrun with them (which is sure to happen if they are overrewarded), it is a turn off to the majority of the audience who doesn't buy in or find them appealing. Our money is better used elsewhere. I can't speak for curangel who probably downvotes more than I do.
I also downvote stuff where there is no political issue at all, like photo blogs and travel blogs because I think many of them are basically reward mining (go out, take some pictures, post and earn $100). Again most of these would post anyway (as people do on no-reward social media and photo sites all day every day) and don't benefit Hive that much.
I upvote and downvote where I want to see rewards go to benefit Hive and grow my investment. Of course this is my subjective opinion, as with every other voter.
If recent events have taught me anything it's that I'm extremely paranoid.
Good thing I stopped smoking the reefers.
That has never happened to me in the four and half years that I've spent so far on Hive. I guess "I'm bad at politics" :)
Not to single anyone out, as there are quite a few accounts doing this, so identifying information deliberately removed, but here's a recent post from Trending (not $100 but still quite a bit).
Hello, it's just a curiosity! Do people who vote minus get a reward for the post?
Posted Using LeoFinance Beta