Is HF21 a trap?
HF21 has a bunch of different things in it. People for years have complained about combining too many things into a hardfork for Steem at once. The challenge on teh other side is that every hardfork is a risk to exchanges not keeping up. Poloniex has gone down for literal months. So, I'm an advocate of hardforking smaller changes once every 3-6 months, but I just don't see that kind of development pace being sustainable under current circumstances. So, we're left with no changes, bigger changes, and longer cycles. It's less than ideal.
In terms of this hardfork like every other hardfork the question is "How are you redistributing the money that I get now?" I've come to the conclusion that nearly every complaint on the platform is "I want to do less work to get more return." Well, at the moment posting doesn't seem to be the mass market success making thing. It seems we need other stuff happening on the chain than your trestise on scrotal infections of South African right handed salamanders. it would be great if Steemit would do some of this other stuff, but it's hard to count on them for anything outside of pure product development and a steady 800k sell wall every month. Also, that product development has really been about them and their wants rather than what the community has been asking for often for years...
So, anyway if you want marketing efforts, larger projects than $20 to get accomplished, or product development you're going to need to get it from the SPS going forward. that's the thingy were money goes in and you can make requests of the community. It's kinda like a tax, but the whole thing is voluntary and controlled by the stakeholders. So, it's kinda like opt in taxes where you choose which proposals your stake will support.
It means we can make bigger projects happens or really I'm just happy that it means we could help projects happen here. The bad news is that your mega post on scrotal infections might not make as much money. Once the rage goes down a little please realize that there's now a second way to earn. Make a proposal to do something that adds value to the chain.
If you're worried about how you're going to make something seen or heard I can offer for you to talk about your proposal on muh radio show on Sunday nights. If I like the plan I'll resteem and advocate for you.
So, with the current plan your post rewards will take a 10% immediate hit. If the goals of the SPS are met and we're adding more value than the price of Steem goes up because it's spreading into more hands through more projects and hopefully within say a year your posts are worth more than they would have been and we have this neato funding thing.
EIP
There are three parts to the economic incentive plan.
- A reward curve change
- Downvotes
- Curation changes
My current view is that 1 does almost nothing. It's a very gentle tweak. I may be wrong, but that's my current take.
- Down votes are 100% necessary in a functioning system. The challenge is whales like Bernie who flag accounts like @sgtreports to zero because of opinion flagging. @sgtreports now is promising to never post here again.
So, the whole thing is kinda prima dona esque. Bernie or anyone else flagging for opinion difference especially to zero is a shitty behavior. But I think if everyone is armed or everyone is in their own communities it likely won't matter nearly as much. Ok, fine nuke my steem rewards, but if you want to fuck with my PAL rewards be prepared to buy the same amount or more as me to flag me down....
I guess I think this is a short term problem or a problem for communities that can't control their membership at all. Fortunately steem-engine has mute features, so even if a whale buys a shit ton to fuck with a community a community thorugh the owner of the issuing account has the ability to mute them. Controversial? Yes? Big Stick? Yes. It could also be used like a time-out. You've been a bad boy flagging people for bullshit all your posts are on a time-out now. Here's a dunce cap too.
Anyway, flagging is important to be able to disincentive spam. We haven't had it and so much of the rewards system is leached away every day and devaluing everythhing we do around here. Hopefully everyone can start tossing some flags on clear leaching like comment farming or all of Bernies computer authored posts or all of trafs mega bid botted posts. Then let's see how the rewards shift.
The last portion is 50:50 curation. We have this on PALnet now. Note it hasn't ruined the platform. I actually feel a lot more incentive to make sure I'm curating every day knowing that a healthy dose of curation is coming back my way. The other thing I noticed is that now owning stake matters more. So, why would a rich person read and upvote your scrotal infection article is a little more important. It's because they want to get better returns on their steem voting. After viewing these changes on PALnet I actually think the combo is a slightly non-linear curation curve (R^1.05) combined with 50:50 makes me actually curate, which I haven't paid all that much attention to in my almost 3 years here.
Anyway, tldr, it's a clickbait title and it's not a trap. The whole thing is better than what we have now. We're experiencing a lot of these changes on PALnet already and they are good. I've thrown posts into trending calling certain hardforks a clusterfuck. I think I was right then. I think these are good improvements and in the long term will reward all people on the platform more than they are now. It's gonna be ok.
If you want to discuss it I have a radio show from 9-11 eastern tonight on msp-waves.
When is Hard Fork 21 taking place?
Cuz i dont see the diffrence in rewards as 50/50
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Lol once HF21 goes through I hope everyone posts a scrotal infection post in honour of the balls it took to push this through!
Posted using Partiko iOS
🍒😂
On it! Seen it a couple times over the years lol
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I wasn’t aware that Palnet had the ability to moderate posts at a ui level, that’s great. We did the same thing with TokenBB where mods and admins can hide abusive or duplicate topics or replies on the forum, the splinterlands and palnet forums will have that feature then.
I think moderation at the UI level is super important if we going to push forward this site as censorship resistant! Like with centralize sites once it’s removed it’s removed
But what we need to get through to content creators is that your content is not lost but hidden/limited!
If people want to find it they can find it
So you sort of punished for not abiding by community guidelines but there’s not this authoritarian we decide what gets put up and stays up
Posted using Partiko iOS
Yep! wish you guys would hurry it up :)
Thanks for taking the time to write what I'm going to call a 'witness HF21 position statement' - I'm just going through the Top 21 and seeing how many have - not many, but now I can plus 1!
PAL is working out great btw. Feels fresh. Less drama!
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!dramatoken
You're upping the drama to new levels! Have a DRAMA.
To view or trade
DRAMAgo to steem-engine.com.To listen to the audio version of this article click on the play image.
Brought to you by @tts. If you find it useful please consider upvoting this reply.
Whales have just as much time every day to do manual curation as everyone else. 50/50 works on Palnet because PAL is much more evenly distributed than STEEM. It's not a fair comparison.
It seems that Steemit Inc is pushing to make Steemit more of a content quality driven system, which is fine in its own right. I have a feeling that a lot of the smaller accounts frustrated with their diminished rewards will be driven to Palnet and other communities for rewards. Again, fine it its own right. What I'm hoping for, however, is that STEEM will somehow get distributed further in the coming years to decentralize and better secure the main chain. @ocdb is one way to do it, which is why I hope Steemit Inc and some other large stakeholders will keep supporting it for a long time.
Great, succinct summary. I take it you'll be supporting the HF21 then?
Really liked this:
Had no idea this feature was built into SE... this has been one of the things I've been concerned about as I research about putting together a proposal for a community to go down the SCOT/Tribe path.
Look, I've posted that I'm uneasy about the culture of flagging; however I'm willing to see whether it actually makes a difference. Changing the creator/curator split I think will be more effective, personally. But then maybe it'll be the combination of the two.
We've all been able to downvote as part of our responsibility in curating the eco-system, and downvotes will still be valued according to stake, will they not? Will having an amount of 'free' downvotes really make a difference? This is the bit I'm sceptical about....
The downvote culture is quite an uneasy feeling. I once so a literal mob destroy a steemit account with downvotes just because they did not like the individual. People have grudges and the power of a downvote with a massive SP bank makes it much more dangerous.
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Well that's the ugly side of it... cannot be denied.
I do understand that it has its place in the context of curating content - that is, in reducing the share of the reward pool to something which doesn't deserve it.
I'm still yet to understand how the downvote pool will discourage the with-hunt mob mentality... but I am looking to find as much information and opinion as I can.
Thanks for sharing the background and especially the benefits of the hardfork from your view. In my opinion,a super small redfishs opinion only, the hardfork21 seems to make it even heavier for new Steemians to get started.... But I hope you are right and the community will receive better and more curation votes in the end.
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This fork and the last fork did this very effectively, unfortunately. We’ll see what happens.
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Hi what about those 1 steem voteplans? How are they going to work things out? With the 50/50 vote rule? Palnet isn't ruined because they haven't things like that in front and it's not the whole steem community but maybe I follow @exyle on that turning totally to pal and just delegate my steempower to something. If it's going to be like steemcoinpan.
I still don't like the fact that the content creators lose another 10% while the company simply continues to cash in left and right. It seems highly unfair and exactly the systems everyone is promoting that steemit is fighting against such as Facebook. It literally makes no sense why we as a community of users can't restrict their spending and their rewards they are getting for such little work and such flat out in my opinion disrespect to all the members on steemit.
If we want to truly fix something then that is what needs to be fixed.
The 50.50 split is such as simple yet effective solution. Palnet did this and now I curate 100% more then what I ever did on steemit. I actually read posts and vote on them and include my own detailed comment after it. To me it has already built a closer and better community and it was such a small/smart and simple change.
Will do my best to be on the radio show tonight been looking forward to listening to one.
At least at this rate it won't be too long until that stake's sold off - or maybe I should be careful what I wish for?!?
That comment's worth a !dramatoken !
has to be on it's own line.
I tossed it out there for you. :)
Oh OK thanks! Next time!
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They don't lose 10%, and it seems you have no problem with curation cutting entirely into author rewards more than twice that since you can cash in on that, plus this has absolutely nothing to do with Facebook and how in the world would you restrict their spending, since when is crypto at all about limiting how much others can spend and where do you get off thinking that a mob, what you refer to as "community" has any right to impose your arbitrary limits and finally how do you figure that the SPS has anything to do with steemit selling their coins?
The nerve some people have.
Never said sps was part of steemits spending. U can't sit there and think that steemit the company has not been dragging down prices with their massive sells each month. The market cap is only a few million on steem so it plays a huge factor. They have acomphished near nothing with the money they have blown. If u say they haven't then u must be missing a few screws.
Posted using Partiko Android
Here you are, in the ultimate wisdom of "but there must be something we can do to limit how much users can sell".
I'm the one missing screws though, and because you don't know how much work they are doing that means that they're not doing work. Keep on talking shit about steemit, it's the most popular thing to do, literally as original as harping on ze whalez.
As if I said anything to that effect. This is what you said:
And I said:
Because you tied one into the other, implicating that one has something to do with the other.
Yeah, I'm sure you think that makes sense, after all it's high season to say idiotic nonsense and feel entitled to how much others can spend.
Please share your wonderful wisdom then lol
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Here's something, the absence of visible development is not necessarily even the indication of such an absence. It's my spin on "the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence". If you couldn't decypher the other one: it does not matter if one person tries to censor others from selling their coins, or a whole "community", it's not the right thing, and the means never justify the ends.
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Well I am not saying restrictions be put on their funds. That I agree is not right. But just like with any investment such as stocks u have a vote. With dpos u don't. It's more of a government structure and we know how much money governments love to blow.
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Literally what you expressed, go find you a screwdriver or something that can tune up those things you call brains.
(I'm all three dudes right now)
Really puzzles me how u go through life with such the aditude lol good luck with that enjoy your weekend.
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Yeah but you're probably as puzzled by that as in thinking with what you were going to do to evade exactly what you said just now when you tried to make it as if my attitude was what we were discussing. In other words, project much "my shit don't stink"?
Nah just a Miss understanding on ur part which is very common online. Restricting them would mean reduced funds the company earns because the community voted on it as a change. Steems price will struggle if there is needless spending and the community should be able to vote more and have direction.
Steemit is steem they are suppose to do the development work. They haven't been and still lack to make much movement. They spend time on dumb updates instead of listening to the community as they should since each person here is in essence a stock holder in the company.
But I can see from ur other posts u just like to bitch and moan so after this post u will no longer be a waste of my time.
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What are you talking about? What funds? How can the mob vote on that? Clearly you were talking about "the selling pressure" and you are now trying to twist it, which if not you can explain exactly what funds you want the community to restrict, but I'm 100% certain you can't and will anticipate your floundering or evasion as you've done thus far, like the tidbit I said about the apparent lack of development not being a lack of development (read: apparent).
Lol what a moron. No need to respond to anything moron, I know you are a moron now.
Dumdum dum
B.
O no, the moron downvoted me after accusing me of misunderstanding what "restrict their spending" means, thank you for making me smile, I revel knowing that the post I wrote a few days ago about your ilk hit a proverbial nerve, proverbial because you're a fucking moron and nerves are as rare to you, as rare as integrity is to a pathetic liar that thinks his shit don't stink, telling others they misunderstood what he had literally expressed in three different ways.
O what's that moron, not gonna engage this waste of your time, lol.
!dramatoken
Such drama, you've earned a DRAMA!
To view or trade
DRAMAgo to steem-engine.com.this is one of the most thoughtful comments I've gotten in a year or so!
The real purpose of n^2 was to incentivize people to buy lots of STEEM and power up one account. But when talking about it now, people focus on the anti-sybil part and gloss over the “buy lots of STEEM part.” And n^2 probably rarely inspired anyone to buy lots of STEEM because that aspect was basically only noticed by people who read and understood that part of the white paper.
Lol, buying lots of steem and using it wisely, two different things. Wonder how we ended up in hf 17.fuck..
n^2 also counteracted Diminishing Marginal Utility, (Where each additional unit of an asset is valued less than the previous one) and encouraged curators to upvote posts which had already seen some success.
(There's currently nothing to be made by upvoting a post once it's hit $50, so nobody does; so there's nothing to be made by upvoting a post once its hit $40; so nobody does...)
I loved n^2. It took me from Casual reader of the white paper to Heavily invested Steem maniac.
You were there. Who championed n^2?
I forget who it was who “championed” it. He was really vague about it, but basically described the desired effect. Some YouTuber early in the launch.
R^2 was pretty broken. I'm not a fan, but R^(something larger than 1 but smaller than 2) seems really good. It's enough to incentivize the same kind of behavior, but not to the point where it breaks voting for anyone without a 5% stake in the token.
Dear @mattclarke
Correct me if I'm wrong, but would that also mean that those who upvote comments will have it even harder and their votes will be bringing less rewards?
Yours
Piotr
"It seems we need other stuff happening on the chain than your trestise on scrotal infections of South African right handed salamanders."
... this.
... except it would be somebody else's work on scrotal infections of South African right handed salamanders and it would be botted to the front page of trending for all to see how worthwhile Steemit is.
I've discovered more quality content in three days using the palnet.io browser than in a year and a half actively curating on steem. If this hardfork has done anything positive, it's that it's driven likeminded creatives to onboard on the next best alternative.
Bring the big stick. A small community of altruistic people >>>>>> flag wars/opinion downvotes/general internet fuckery that makes legit big money investors click off Steemit.com as fast as they arrived.
"The last portion is 50:50 curation. We have this on PALnet now. Note it hasn't ruined the platform. I actually feel a lot more incentive to make sure I'm curating every day knowing that a healthy dose of curation is coming back my way."
-- all the this. Nuff said.
Thanks for your work and dedication. Single biggest value-add in the ecosystem and (GASP) a little light and positive energy given I was somewhat down on the fact that my steem account is the perfect example of one that's going to get smashed by the hardfork. Now I'm almost grateful for it, as it has spurred on tons of development and changed my thinking about Steem the currency vs. Steem the blockchain that has tons of valuable shit built ontop of it (FINALLY.)
I think you are wrong @aggroed; it is a trap. It has trapped many people into revealing just how little attention they pay to trying to understand the platform at all.
starts slow clap
They in turned trapped me into revealing just how vulgar I can be when it comes to responding to their inconsiderate nonsense. I am the real victim here, who else bothered as much as I do to point out how fucktarded all these retarded people are..
lols. it is a hard path you walk.
Call me Frankfuck.
Hi Frankfuck.
Thanks :)
Why does no one talk about how downvotes are going to be bought and sold just like upvotes? Creating a new easy-come-easy-go free resource out of thin air is exactly the way to make the problem worse.
Didn't they say you have X amounts of free downvotes a day? To prevent selling?
I don't really see how that prevents selling.
How is buying downvotes a problem? What does people prevent from selling downvotes now? I think if someone wants to buy downvotes he would pay 25% (missed out curation reward for the seller) more for the service.
The problem is that a resource is being created out of thin air with false pretenses.
Yeah, that's not going to happen. Big accounts are going to use this new resource to fleece even more money for themselves. They will buy downvotes for super cheap and continue to engage in aggressive terrorist-like tactics that make everyone else afraid to retaliate.
Precisely.
Posted using Partiko Android
Makes sense to me.
It's not going to solve anything. Really, in an ideal world, we all know what should happen:
1 - Author rewards not getting slashed in half for the sake of easy (and double) curation rewards. There are enough manual curation initiatives out on this platform at the moment so this whole "it will encourage curation" nonsense doesn't add up.
As a content creator, I'd be fine with 2/3 post payout to author and 1/3 to curator but now it's going to put off a lot of people creating as the rewards aren't what they were before (which was not a lot in the first place!)
2 - Bid bots have to go - All of them - full stop.
3 - If 2 won't happen then (as much as it pains me to say it), bid bots can stay only to support manual curation initiatives such as curie, c-squared, helpie etc etc and get that manually curated content on to the trending feed and it benefits everyone. BB owners get the curation rewards (which won't be unsubstantial) and content creators get their varied content more exposure which is what that damn trending page needs. Travel blogs, science blogs, music videos, supporting talented artists to name but a few.
4 - Ditch that rep system whilst we're at it. It's pointless as it can just be bought (although if all of the above happen then it will actually mean something).
Apologies if none of that made sense - I've been travelling across a massive desert all this week and flew back to the city an hour ago.
Yours
Nicky
Okay I'm going to talk about the scrotal infection issue first and put it out there that it is not that serious, fuck you for bringing it up lol.
Secondly, the Hardfuck doesn't seem like much is going to change and people like Bernie and Traf will still continue to anally rape the reward pool. They're the bane of decentralization and I doubt anything can be done to stop that. I also think a way of making them invest their large stake in some business venture is better than antagonising them. Also, I can't confirm this but I suspect Bernie gets a kick every time he's called out, I might be wrong as I have only seen his dick once(kind of impressive).
All in all, I'm all in on steem and irrespective of where we go, I'm going too.
Good to know that things are working in PAL net. I have a suggestion to grow the community in the country of Venezuela. I have a project of supporting their post every time they review the topic that is explained by brother eli, topics of the bible. People are making video post comment, it's like two birds in one stone. Helping them by encouraging their spirit and monetary support. What do you think of it?
Hi, @aggroed!
You just got a 0.15% upvote from SteemPlus!
To get higher upvotes, earn more SteemPlus Points (SPP). On your Steemit wallet, check your SPP balance and click on "How to earn SPP?" to find out all the ways to earn.
If you're not using SteemPlus yet, please check our last posts in here to see the many ways in which SteemPlus can improve your Steem experience on Steemit and Busy.
sometimes i think if content creators talk about there loss something, there are wrong. If holding Steem is more lucrative, the price should longtime increase. So there get more if we get a higher price in my opinion.
The Steem Infrastucture is build every day more and more. With RC Delegation and other cool stuff, holding Steem should have more value as today i think.
Removed my witness vote for you. You randomly attack Steemit, Inc thinking you can do better. You also are getting arrogant because of your successes on STEEM.
PALnet won't save steem btw. You are working in the wrong direction.
!dramatoken
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You've got DRAMA. You are going to be a Whale!
To view or trade
DRAMAgo to steem-engine.com.This post has been touched by the Royal Penis.
People say 2e12 curve won't do much.
Don't worry about it they say.
So let's drop it and keep things linear.
Maybe add a little step or ban votes with % value under 10sp (ie if you have 100 steem you can't vote less than 10%).
Palnet works because Steem is dysfunctional. Good work by the way, but its the cart pulling the horse around here. Palnet and Scot have done more for Steem in 6 months than Steemit mananged in 18.
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With the change to 50:50 (live on palnet now), I feel like I want more votes. If the focus is to shift towards curation, then wouldn't it be better to have more curation votes? Was this ever considered?
I am generally in favour of HF21. I support the SPS. I support higher curation rewards and the downvote pool. I am concerned about the change to the rewards curve. It appears posts with lower payouts will be hit quite hard. Most users will not get many posts over 6 STU (16 Steem). This is likely to provide incentive to buy votes to get onto the linear portion of the curve. I would prefer to keep the rewards curve linear or a gentler non-linear curve.
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Seeing these types of posts really sucks sometimes, and that's only because of how stupidly accurate they are. It's disappointing to see people saying similar things about how much we need more change and how much we really need Steemit Inc to stop just covering their funds while dumping on ours, because it's gone on for far too long. Nothing changes, and every change that appears to show promise tends to fail as everything goes back to how it was prior to those changes.
It's borderline depressing to see we're all saying the same thing and have done so for far too long with no improvements. I really want to believe HF21 could fix things, but I just have such little faith in Steemit Inc to provide the support it needs.
Congratulations @aggroed!
Your post was mentioned in the Steem Hit Parade in the following category:
Dear @aggroed
I hope you won't mind that I'm not as optimistic as you are.
I must admit, that more I read about HF21 more I'm afraid about the future of Steemit. And it's not because I think that those changes will bring end to this platform. Not at all.
What bothers me the most is the fact, that absolutely majority of those who share their opinions think that 50/50 split and new reward-curve will affect them in negative way. And we're all simply not being heard. Our voices here mean indeed nothing.
Does it mean that we can expect that most exchanges will not be allowing to withdraw and deposit STEEM for quite sometime after HF21?
From my understanding, upvoting comments will be even likely happening now (since it would be only one small upvote, then it's value will be very small).
ps. Any idea when HF21 will take place?
Yours
Piotr
I’ll read this in a little bit.
Posted using Partiko iOS
Awesome post @aggroed , that I will be going over again when I have more time to read without interuptions, lol! upped and resteemed for now ✌👌❤🙋
Smells like some really funky cheese!
Posted using Partiko Android
The clickbait worked -- I'm glad I read it! HF21 makes more sense to me now and I will start thinking about proposals...
I think part of the issue is that we have creatives who are more prolific and have more time to create than others. If you can produce quite a lot, a 10 percent haircut and the opportunity to produce larger projects with the haircut is not necessarily too frightening. If you produce less, and tend to put so much work into fewer pieces, the idea of a haircut is maddening, and the other opportunities to create more for less don't appeal as much.
Yes
Posted using Partiko Android
@aggroed, I don't know about the Technical aspects but two things are definitely vital and that is Working Product (For World To Know) and 50:50 Curation to make our Internal Economy more effective to feel the Point Of Balance.
Wishing you an wonderful time ahead and stay blessed.
Posted using Partiko Android
#belowaveragecreator
people really started searching for posts and reading them just because they will (or already do, on palnet) get 25% more for their curation reward? really? really, really? You (people) will now spend few hours looking for quality content (and not upvote yourself or sell or buy or whatever it is done to get it all) because you don't get 25% but 50%?
I thought that people read and watch stuff because they like it, how stupid am i.