After dedicating 5.5 years to Hive/Steem, I've been informed by KING ACIDYO that I added no value
Post Rewards Notice
For reasons that will become clear in this post (in order to help show the true colors of certain actors) I will be donating (via the beneficiary mechanism) 100% of the rewards on this post to various communities & projects on Hive.
In this case, the rewards have been split evenly (20% each) between the following projects: informationwar, theherbalhive, dynamichivers, crossculture, and hive.pizza
Edit: I have had to adjust this to declining the rewards moving forward instead of donating them, because the down-voters don't care WHERE/WHO the rewards are going to, they just want to make sure my content isn't seen - and if I accept rewards then their downvotes can eat away at my 76 reputation, and within a handful of posts I will be muted from almost ever Hive front-end.
Hello beautiful humans!
Coming to you from the magical Rocky Mountains, for the first time in a few days - after being provided with a ton of inspiration for new content, by the folks attempting to censor content & creators on Hive.
This is the first of what is most likely my last run of posts to Hive, after 65 months of dedicating myself to this blockchain.
There's a lot to cover before I go... so I'm going to start from the beginning.
5.5 Years on Hive/Steem - The TL;DR Version
It's 2016, and I just got to my buddy bruceb's house, after the National Rainbow Gathering, and my good friend churdtzu lets me know about this new platform called Steem[it].
Unlike FB, Twit, YT, this was a "decentralized blockchain" platform, censorship resistant, not run by Big Tech - something for and by anarchists.
At this time, I had been living out of my backpack, joyously wandering the planet going to festivals, gatherings, ceremonies, and intentionally communities, not using money at all, and lacking for nothing...
For just over a year, since I had quit my job, given away my belongings, and headed for the 2015 Gathering.
Needless to say, I was hooked pretty fast, both by the warm reception to my content (in terms of comments, follows, and rewards), and the level of intellectual conversation to be found on the platform.
I became a full-time writer. Those first few weeks & months I was playing with all sorts of content creation, all sorts of topics, and finding my voice.
Because, until this point, I had no blog, no vlog, not even social media. Hell, I started on Hive with a free laptop someone kicked me down, because I didn't even use a cell-phone at the time.
As the title alludes to, I dedicated the next 5+ years of my life to content creation, curation, and onboarding people to Hive.
I started @tribesteemup, which evolved into @abundance.tribe after the Hive HF, and through it have had the honor of supporting many of the people and projects creating world-change, and great content on Hive. Projects like informationwar, deepdives, naturalmedicine, ecotrain, homeedders, familyprotection, build-it, crossculture, and so on.
Sometimes I posted daily (very rarely more than that), sometimes I went months without posting at all, only commenting & curating, and promoting Steem/Hive out in the real world.
Sometimes I've posted 3000+ word research papers (I've hit Hive's character limit for a post many times), sometimes simple shorter videos to share important news.
Oh ya, ALL my written content has been exclusive to this Blockchain (videos being mirrored on Odysee/lbry for about a year now)
I took part in dozens of panels on crypto, social media, and cryptocurrency - always giving the best info I had, but focusing on the potential of this blockchain.
I have done hundreds of presentations and Q&As about this blockchain, in multiple countries - sometimes to a few people, sometimes to hundreds.
I led hands-on, hours-long classes to onboard people in dozens of cities, and offered 1-on-1 support to everyone who's ever asked me for help with the platform - from friends to random people on Discord.
Did I mention that every single one of those classes, consultations, workshops, presentations, and so on were all done 100% on the gift economy? (Meaning I never charge anyone for anything - not even "recommended donations")
I did multiple video series specifically to promote this blockchain and support the community, like my Steemians of Anarchapulco and 2 Minute Steemit Tips series. (40 & 37 episodes, respectively)
I have given away tens of thousands of Hive/Steem through various art contests, FundTheMusic, PayItForward, and various other initiatives I launched.
When the Justin Sun incident occurred, I covered it in-depth, and at a level normal people could grasp, I rallied for witness votes, did an interview with a friend who's a crypto YouTuber, was in the Discord town halls, and did everything I could to support the community and the blockchain.
In the last year, I fell in love with Splinterlands, and started spending more and more energy on that side of things, investing basically all my crypto that wasn't staked Hive into the game.
Through the gaming side of things, I became part of the hive.pizza community, and eventually co-leader of our PIZZA 1 guild
For many months now, I've been curating with my own large SPT & ONEUP stakes over on @kennysgaminglife, as well as being a curator for monster-curator.
The gaming side also allowed me to make a series of pack opening videos where I gave away thousands of dollars worth of Splinterlands assets, I launched the #BrawlReport initiative, I was able to support the launch of the #ONEUP token & platform, as well as the #SBT token, and I've gotten to connect with a whole different part of the Hive community.
Did I mention that since getting into Splinterlands, that one onboarding ramp has allowed me to bring in more than 2 dozen new people to Hive? All of whom are investing crypto in the project that is putting this blockchain on the map, and only a couple of whom have even approached the social media side.
Why the Background on Me?
Well, that's easy - because the basic concept behind all of these claims (and the justification for censoring my posts and taking away my rewards) is that I've never added anything to this blockchain or this community. You can see this in the comment pictured above (click the picture to go to the original comment.)
Question to the audience #1: In your opinion, have I "added no value to Hive."
Obviously, there's a lot of digging that any of you are free to do, into my history on this chain.
I was half-tempted to tag some people here to ask them the same question, rhetorically, but I figured there was no reason to unnecessarily make potential targets of others, especially without their consent.
The Censors Strike
Now here we are. It's November of 2021, and I've been feeling so bullish on Hive because of splinterlands, spknetwork, and various other things coming up.
Of course, at the same time, the malicious down-voting of content by the informationwar / deepdives community led to me making a big adjustment to the voting for @Abundance.Tribe / @tribevibes / @tribesteemup, mostly in an attempt to counter their attacks.
If you've been here for a while, then you know that power-abusing whales is nothing new, so I wasn't really concerned - just figured we were dealing with the current bad actor(s).
After days of telling all my friends about how Hive could totally make it to $10 by January 6th, or at least $5, and then the price spiking up over $2, I just had to make a video for Odysee & Telegram laying out my excitement for the blockchain, and letting people know about a bunch of awesome projects on the Hive.
That post blew up, receiving the most upvotes I've gotten in a LONG time, a bunch of comments (many adding other great projects I didn't know about), and over $300 in payout (much easier with $2+ Hive of course)
Payout day for that post comes, and goes - and I didn't even count the rewards (because I never do), I just reinvested them into HE tokens.
The next day, when I looked at my front page on peakd, I realized that my post had been downvoted right at the last minute, for over $230 by one account, curangel.
Now, I've received plenty of down-votes over the years, from belligerents, from random empty accounts, and more than once from whales that dislike seeing anything "controversial" on trending.
That's the kicker right there - almost every single time that I've been downvoted over the last 65 months has been because I posted about something that doesn't go along with the mainstream narrative.
Of course, those posts are always well-sourced, and no argument is ever made - just downvoting. Why defend your beliefs when you can simply silence the heretics. Most of the time I only address it by leaving the DVer a comment asking for explanation.
In this particular case, after seeing the coordinated attack on multiple high quality creators and long-time supporters of this blockchain, I had to say something more. What's the point of having a platform if you aren't going to use it to call out wrong-doing?
So, I made a post, with a somewhat click-baity title, with the massive curangel downvote in the thumbnail, and a walk-through of what happened to me, quickly shifting to an introduction to what's been happening across the platform over the past months.
That post was quickly up to dozens of comments, and over $200 in payout.
It was just as quickly zeroed out by 1 person.
Here's where it stands currently:
Countering Non-Factual Claims - Making an Actual Argument
One of the most common excuses for this malicious downvoting that has been offered is because we're just a bunch of conspiracy theorists, or as king acidyo himself put it posting controversial no fact "truths"
Of course, none of these posts that are being downvoted have a single comment or response post attempting to challenge or refute a single claim being made, or any of the sources... Go ahead and check my posts that have been attacked, or those of jasonliberty, or ura-soul, or many others.
Just censorship. Without explanation or justification.
Sounds kind of like Facebook or Twitter, eh?
So, that first part of the post was something of an introduction to acidyo, and anyone else who doesn't know me - because his comments made it clear that he's never glanced at my content, and has literally no idea the ways I've been involved here.
Now, the rest of this post will be dedicated to sharing some of the conspiracy theories and outrageous, non-factual claims that acidyo has been making about me, and others, in the comments of my recent posts - with nice clear responses for him, and everyone else.
Since we've got this pile of comment threads where he throws accusations, ad hominems, and disrespect at me while ignoring my responses, or the reality that is available to the public, on the chain, we might as well explore and address, no?
Your Posts Get No Interaction!
One of acidyo's assertions today was that my content doesn't get any interaction, except for when I make a post about how they are maliciously down-voting people.
- First, if that is the case that should tell you something about how much the community cares about this problem.
- Secondly, I challenge his statement, for which no evidence was provided.
While yes, my most recent post about this downvoting problem does have WAY more comments than I usually get, I assert that his statements are blown out of proportion, in order to mislead the readers.
The following is simply a collection of my little vote-payout-comment things from all my posts in the last 30 days, with the top one being the aforementioned outlier post.
Let the data speak for itself, eh?
That's 22 posts.
Six of those posts have 5 or less comments.
Twelve of those posts have 10 or more comments.
Question to the audience #2: Are there "never comments" on my posts?
You're Just In It For The Rewards!
Another assertion that acidyo made about me today was that I'm just in Hive for the rewards, and that I'm a parasite on the system. Again, nothing has been given to back this claim, and it came in along with strings of childish verbal abuse.
Now, at the time, I had already explained some of my practices to reduce my impact on the rewards pool to him in this comment, a reply to his claims about me taking advantage of self-voting (another claim we'll address shortly.
As I explained to him, I post less, intentionally, when prices go up, and I've posted consistently when I got $2 posts, $100 posts, and everywhere in between.
All of my claims here, as well as acidyo's are can be checked on the blockchain, by checking out the history on my accounts and/or using one of the block explorers like hiveblocks.com
I've also provided links to various things above that clearly counter his assertion, in my introduction portion.
Question to the audience #3: Am I just in it for the rewards?
Bonus Question: How much more or less successful do you think Hive/Steem would be than it is now, if it had never had financial rewards as an incentive for content creators?
You Just Vote For Yourself With Delegated Stake!
Acidyo's next assertion, and the last one I'm going to cover in this post, is that I just have a bunch of delegated stake, and I use it for nothing but up-voting myself.
Now, this one is a bit trickier to present evidence for (at my level of tech expertise and time availability) because we no longer have steemworld, and the replacement (hivetasks) never seems to work for me, so I don't have any easy way to present vote distribution charts like I used to.
I'm sure someone else can find an easy way to present that data.
I can guarantee you that I receive well under 1% of the total vote-weight given by @tribesteemup - regardless of how long of a time frame you want to look at. I don't have a chart, but I know it to be a fact, and anyone can attempt to disprove me by checking the records, if they so choose.
For now, I'll present the top upvoters from my last handful of posts. The two that were zero'd out will be separate at the bottom, because I did upvote them much more with @tribesteemup to fight the censorship attempt, as I laid out in my recent TSU update.
Now, as promised, the two recent posts where I did give myself 100% upvotes from @tribesteemup - just like I have been for all the other wrongfully zero'd out posts that I find.
Obviously this is just a small sampling, and real due diligence would require y'all to do your own research into this (and I'll pay someone to! Scroll down just a bit more), but I'm going to do it anyway, to stay on theme...
Question to the audience #4: Do I just up-vote myself?
Bonus QUEST for the audience
I'll pay 10 Hive to the first person who can give us an visual breakdown of the incoming votes (by weight) on this account, as well as the outgoing accounts from @tribesteemup, where the delegated stake that has been entrusted to me lies. The farther back, the better. Thanks in advance!
Closing Thoughts
Don't worry, I didn't forget about the other malicious downvoters, like azircon, ocdb, altleft, smooth (and the aforementioned acidyo & curangel)
It's just that ocdb & curangel are "groups" that will never comment or respond to anything, smooth has remained relatively silent and has only downvoted content about downvoting, and azircon is already threatening people on the chain - so no need for me to address them.
Acidyo, however, came in acting like he was the mature, non-biased, righteous savior... and quickly went off the rails name-calling, wild conspiracy theories, and stating obvious lies as though they were fact (much of that being about who I am and how I live - hence the intro.)
I do recommend everyone go read through the comments on my last post if you've got the time. Very informative, in many many ways, and lots of great thoughts on the state of Hive, from two of the downvoters, and dozens of other users.
I've got just one or two more of these posts swirling around in my head - breaking down potential solutions & alternatives to the clusterf%@k of Hive, addressing the total lack of willingness to debate shown by that side of the authoritarian-libertarian spectrum, and how all this mess on hive is .
How Long After Posting Before They Zero This One Out?
I figure they're going to dog-pile on this one within minutes again, even though I'm not getting any rewards. Then I'll burn Hive to promote it up onto trending again.
Because I'm the one who just cares rewards, right King Acidyo?
Image Sources
The bullshit-meter portion of the cover image was taken from this page on thepointmag.com - came up in a PREsearch for bullshit.
Divider image available free from of @rqr4 - had to use something because the basic markdown dividers were just hideous.
Quick Edit
I just totally forgot to drop the screenshot of the part where acid revealed that all of the "controversial" content creators on Hive are just one person!
This is where the "conspiratorial" part of the sub-title came from - just too good to pass up.
Oh, and look, his basis for his conspiracy theory?
The claim that my posts get no interaction, which we already addressed above.
Thanks for tuning in, and TTFN!
No name calling here but I don't support complaining about rewards and how people vote being rewarded. If you're going to do that and I see it, I'm likely to downvote it.
I appreciate that you don't name-call or make ridiculous claims, and I specifically mentioned that you've been pretty silent during this.
Hey, rules of the game say it's your stake and you can do whatever you want with it right?
You'll notice that almost nothing in my post had anything to do with down-votes, but rather with lies being spread about me by a prominent member of this blockchain.
Yeah this is a bit much. In my years since the last chain with yall, I always saw you and acidyo as two of the most solid and influential people doing cool stuff. It sucks seeing a community that banned together and forked away from the 51% stake attack to have such division. I just had this happen with guy that is battling acid ironically enough trying to use my past comments and reblogging them in some attempt to use comment in his whale war. When asking about it on text he flipped out and acted like a whole diff person. like whoa. @peerplays man is a really cool thing. Right up your alley and no downvotes for using network that runs off the hive network. airdrops from staked hive if i am understanding properly.
It's because you made no sense and STILL don't...
I'll be happy to clear whatever this means up but you need to write it down for a Mature Adult like my LAWYER to figure out... otherwise YOU are part of THIS PROBLEM i'm afraid by Perpetrating RUMORS.
So for the FUCKING RECORD KID!
TO ALL WHO CARE:
I ABSOLVE @dynamichivers from ANY AND ALL ASSOCIATION WITH MY BRAND!
SO FUCKING SORRY IF HE WAS HARMED BY RETWEET, REBLOG, OR REBIRTH.
HE IS DEFINITELY NOT WITH ME!
~FRANK
now lose my # and stop confusing the ISSUES!
AND RESPOND HERE!
if you HAVE to
Exactly.
Post whatever you like. If you want rewards for it, post stuff where rewarding it is supported by most of the stake.
Holy shit!
There you go again smoooth. Dammit, just finish of growing a fucking mustache, travel to the past and learn to play the damn guitar once and for all you MoFo!
And yeah, I've read each one of the comments you've made in this post so far. But with as many misleading bullshit as you've stated, I wasn't going to bother pointing out or citing one in particular. Hence, this intensely expressive comment!
My answer to everyone who talking about how bad it is, how it is doomed, etc. is: What are you doing here?
If the answer is milking rewards, or looking to flip a 'doomed' token to a greater fool, then I don't care what you have to say. If it is something else, than what you're saying doesn't even make sense. It's just whinging about downvotes, and trying, badly, to make it looking like a sincere opinion. Again, not interested.
¡WTF! @smooth. You keep mentioning the word "stakeholders" as if we all here were equal stakeholders with the same access privileges and with a similar capacity & influence to furtively slide our hands into the communal wealth of the platform to raping and ransack the collective rewards pool in the same proportion and greed as your freaking whimsical lineage. No it's not, son. And each early Ninja Miner knows exactly why.
Paying the rewards from inflation?
Pffft! neither you nor me nor anyone else here "pays" a freaking damn from inflation.
Stakeholders here simply have access to distribute and redistribute the daily wealth of the collective rewards pool whose wealth happens to come from inflation. Which is no the same as paying. And again, neither with the same access privileges nor in the same proportion either.
While the majority here approach the rewards pool with a cup, a jug, a bucket or a barrel to fill them and distribute the rewards among the people. You feel entitled to always approach it with a 'tanker truck' and fill it to the brim.
But you don't fill it with the intention of distributing the rewards among regular people. Since you don't upvote for anyone except your cronies of the ninja mining brotherhood exclusively. Rather, you fill the tanker truck by sucking up and subtracting it from the rewards that others have already distributed to regular people. And so redistribute the wealth again only among your cronies of your ninja mining fraternity in a more sneaky and disgusting way. Right?
And going back to the quote from what you said above...
Why not remove stakeholders from "curation" rewards instead? ¿Huh?
So, to conclude this segment of my reply I'm just going to leave you with what @nealmcspadden said:
And last but not least as for your previous comment that originates this reply.
It is evident that you will never make sense of whatever I say while you insist in continue to be locked up observing things exclusively from the very limited perspective offered by your comfortable bubble and echo chamber of the brotherhood of ninja miners with their early stake ill-gotten.
Yeah! go ahead and rather remove stakeholders from "curation" rewards instead!! };)
Nope, I never said equally. If I pay 100x as much inflation for someone's rewards, I have 100x as much say over said rewards. Equal say when costs are paid unequally is absurd, has probably never happened in the history of the world (outside of philanthropy, maybe, and this certainly isn't a charity), and is completely implausible. But go ahead and keep whinging about it.
BTW, you seem unhappy about how rewards are being distributed. Are you regularly downvoting? If not, you or throwing away a big chunk of your influence. I'd suggest no longer doing that.
Ok, you claim that you've paid 100x as much inflation for your 100x much more influence to act on someone's rewards?
Would you mind breaking down and detailing in what exactly consisted of and from where the hell the funds and payments you did with came from to acquire that unusual upper 100x "say" on everyone else rewards that apparently nobody else here has but just a handful of your own cronies?
Absurd? Yeah, absurd in the same way that I see absurd the early swindler's way in how folks like you were able to acquire that 100x stronger "say" to pay the same costs that everyone else here pays with true effort through content creation, content consumption, true investments from their own pocket and whatnot.
¿Why the hell don't you spend your time spreading and distributing that 100x "say" UPvoting regular people instead of taking it away of the actual rewards and potential gains from what others under utmost consensus have already given to them?
Who the hell here has entrusted, delegated or granted you the power to "adjust" here a sovereign damn?
No! I have not downvoted anyone regularly nor irregularly. In more than 5 years I have here I only done it perhaps 2 times and only for the right reasons.
Maybe just to two spam comments on my posts that had nothing to do with my content and that had left a suspicious and potentially dangerous link to anyone who would read it and follow it.
But never ever to stop and snatch off the potential earnings from their posts due to disagreements of opinion, to arbitrarily "adjust" their ongoing rewards & earnings nor to show the stupid omnipotence of my fortuitous 100x or 1.1x "say" to prove my useless influence.
Hence, I couldn't care less about my influence exerted through stake. And therefore the only big chunk of my influence that I could be throwing away, it would be that one that I could not apply straight through my freaking semi lucid words.
I get a vote based on stake, same as anyone else, including you, simple as that
I really doubt it very much. And if you mean to have received a vote as a witness, at no time does that confers you any power or attribute to "adjust" a damn here. And in any case, never for you trying to "adjust" the rewards people receive and their potential payout for their hard work through a sudden fucking downvote from your ill-gotten 100x "say" within the chain.
Limit yourself only to "adjusting" your nodes and servers as a witness and settle with only the profits that this activity generates for you. And give up the temptation to "adjust" and snatch the earnings from other people who do an even harder and different work than you to keep this project afloat.
You're confused. Being a witness has nothing to do with voting on content rewards, and nobody, including me, gets to "adjust".
I vote, you vote, we all vote. The blockchain adds them up and pays out a reward (if the votes support paying one)
Weren't you going to go and tell everyone not to join Hive?
I'll be keeping a closer eye at what tribesteemup starts overrewarding in the near future, cya around. :)
I have been telling plenty of people. Some want to try to "win Hive back" - not realizing how built-in these issues are. If it's not BS, it's Azir, or you, or whoever comes next.
Whale's gonna whale.
As long as the game is set up this way, this will happen.
On Hive, and in the world at large.
Profit before people, obedience and virtue signalling over questioning authority, and censorship of anyone who might put a wrench in things.
Authoritarians are always going to try to squash anyone who might question their rule.
That's a nice way of saying that you'll start down-voting all sorts of people that I support because I'm calling you out, correct?
Just want to make sure, for the permanent record.
Well, at least you'll be checking out some content that challenges your world-views, and probably even see people peacefully disagreeing in the comments.
Could change your life.
Nah was insinuating you're just going to switch to another account after burning your reputation on your main one. Remember that sockpuppeting only requires one mistake.
I'm being open about what my plans are, and the support from TSU is going to continue as it has for the last few years.
Maybe if you read my post - an introduction of myself to you - then you'd stop responding to some imaginary version of me that doesn't exist.
Yeah cause that's how Hive works, if you "open" about aomething it means that's how it'll be ye? There's no way you can just shoot up a new or old account and vote it up with all thay stake in your control ye? I mean omg people wouldn't lie on the internet!!! and for money?? get outta here you!
Notice how you never actually address anything I say, and just keep telling your own fictional stories about a character with my name.
Why you think I would believe you after how you've been behaving is beyond me. I'm sure if I dug a bit I'd find some juicy trade connections between your voting and whoever is in charge of xeldal's voting or how you stopped selfvoting as much when your friends started getting downvoted because you felt it coming. :)
I may pay someone 10x more than what you offered in your post to take a deep dive into your activities. Could probably do it myself but I think my time is better spent onboarding and guiding new users on Hive who aren't sociopaths.
Again, you just keep making vague judgemental nothing statements.
No quotes, no links, no evidence, no specifics, no examples.
Hey, look, more completely baseless conspiracy theories from acidyo!
You could be the next Alex Jones bro.
Just make up stories, and use those stories as the "evidence" for later claims.
Doesn't matter if it all goes completely counter to reality.
Even if that reality is all available on a public blockchain.
Please do!
I greatly miss the ease with which I use to be able to see, and share visually, just how far & wide the TSU vote was going.
The irony of you going in all righteous, paying someone to do the research, to only realize you were completely full of shit the whole time? Priceless.
Ya, wouldn't want you & @azircon to have too much competition huh?
You must be really mad over my small downvotes after you going full offensive mode over the whole network. You realize I'm on my phone just talking shit right now, right? even my sentences start with things like probably or maybe or may and you're sitting there expecting me to come up with sources and links, lol. do you even social media, bro? You or your post are of literal no importance to me, I'm mostly just waiting for my sleepiness to kick in atm. no wonder you used any text of mine you could in this post for your own defense like you were doing a school project like the only kid trying to suck up to a teacher who hates him more than the students do. xD
laters
2 finger peace sign
more same selfies than exyle
more selflove than jerry b
If you were actually having a conversation instead of just repeating your own imaginings, you'd know that's not true. Actually, I'm pretty sure you already know that's not true, but that's just a guess.
That's not surprising. I certainly didn't know though. Good for you?
Once again proving the point that you're just rambling and saying shit you know isn't true. But it's OK because you're just "talking shit" right?
Except that I'm bringing awareness to your (and others') dictatorial behavior, censorship, and willingness to spread lies in an attempt to derail arguments.
You managed to throw a bunch of words into a comment again, without saying anything at all that relates to the real world.
Congratulations.
must suck fading into irrelevancy.
Oh no, more insults. Whatever will I do?
Probably continue crying like you did over downvotes.
No, I'm just going to keep helping you show everyone what you're really like, since most of the people who have experienced first-hand are afraid to speak out, for fear of your retaliation.
lol I don't retaliate and I stay far away when I get a sense that people are only getting close to me for the wrong reasons, nice try, though. I downvote shit I think is greedy or abusive, like naturalmedicine curation reports taking a huge cut for themselves instead of sharing it with curators, moderators and the authors fully. This is the shit you've been incentivizing so no surprise you don't see anything wrong with that.
It's called GASLIGHTING and it's VERY apparent in their comments.
Overrewarded comment, damn you're really good at using other people's stake willy-nilly all over this comment section and posts, huh? @kennyskitchen
Attempting to help more people see your threat, which you have now partially censored, once again proving the points being made.
lol
And I will join smooth in that. As this post and previous one not only complaining about rewards, tag spam and name calling. But it is also a massive $70 self vote after smooth DV on a post where rewards were liquid.
Is it tag spam if you only tag very specific people that you are actually talking to/about in the post?
I didn't make some giant list everyone who upvotes/downvotes/follows/etc like some people have.
Every account tagged is either a community I've supported over the years, someone already involved in the specific conversation at hand, and the one person whose divider images I used.
ahahah, I just downvoted you bitch @kennyskitchen
just kidding, one day, "they" will experience that :
I hope they will have many babies with whores...
regards...
you are always welcome at the Empire of War Community :).
Truly the problem is in THEM...
the blockchain functions that way.
I don't support these GASLIGHTERs Kenny!
But I do Support YOU, often.
And if I see something I don't like? I typically move.on
HIVE!D
and watching with interest.
Any potential tag spam has been removed - I changed them out with links to folks blogs instead, because a few small errors had been pointed out and I realized that my headings weren't showing up along the sidebar because I had them centered.
Never been downvoted but I care about the chain so I want to find a middle ground. @smooth You guys have done a great job at solving past issues with the chain, but this style of downvoting is eventually going to lead to a whole lot more drama. It's a leak in the ship that needs to be fixed somehow.
It's just a reminder of how much more power large stakeholders like yourself have and how little power the rest of us have (and a much more potent reminder than upvotes). I know it's getting better thanks to forks and that we want to incentivize people building bigger stakes but we need some more mechanisms to decentralize voting power and in the meantime, softer, more diplomatic downvoting, otherwise we will constantly leak support and energy.
We are doing our best but we are far from "Decentralized".
I shouldn't be scared of having all the support I've gained over 5 years erased by sharing this opinion with you right now. That's the main issue.
But I trust that you care about this ecosystem and so I risk it.
I'm not even into the whole truther community, but Kenny has done way more for the chain than he gets credit for (attracting a millionaire investor and a ton of users over the years, not to mention supporting a lot of good content, not only truther stuff, also the Cross Culture community that I run). I told him he should resist the accusations (even if he feels justified) and try to reason with you guys instead of rage quitting, but people get emotional when you hit them in the wallet.
A healthy ecosystem requires more complex solutions than "It's my stake, I can do what I want with it". If that was enough we wouldn't even need downvotes in the first place.
@azircon @curangel I'll risk getting on your bad sides too by tagging you, please consider being gentler with your downvotes, even when you hate the content. At the very least, explain yourself kindly and realize nuking peoples posts to 0 or near 0 feels like an attack and makes even those who you haven't targeted worry about what we can share and what we can't share. "Censorship-resistant" is nice but we want the place to feel fair and as decentralized as possible too.
If anyone decides to target me because I share an opinion like this and the community doesn't come to my rescue than this chain is not what I thought. I believe you will listen to reason, so I have to say something.
It appears to me that that is exactly the intention.
Don't think it is friend. My hope is that we shall see a workable facsimile emerge from ETH 2.0. Even the original creator of DPoS considered it a "experiment" which he chose to walk away from.
Dan walks away from everything.
I'm gonna give them the benefit of the doubt for now. They ignored me for a year over bidbots corruption and finally saw that it was a problem. Then they came up with a solution that I hated which turned out to be great for the chain. I think this is more of a problem of "how to organize society" (we are a little society), something which humans have struggled with forever. DPoS is imperfect, but so is everything else so far.
I know Acidyo to be a decent guy who cares about the chain, and I suspect a lot of people on both sides of every debate here are better than we imagine. But when you have power, you wanna use it, and we all only have so many hours in the day to understand each point of view. And most peoples accusations tend to turn into self fulfilling prophecies.
They haven't yet realized that the level of power they have is incompatible with the idea of decentralization. I think they will eventually. I'll stay here as long as I can find people who listen to reason, and I still can find many.
Good points, @selfhelp4trolls. It's the community that keeps bringing me back although convinced that this experiment is broken. It was doomed with the Ninja Mined Tokens. There was that brief chance of making the fork from STEEM meaningful by simply leaving them behind; yet like Frodo's ring it was too hard for our Champions to destroy. Instead they moved it to a slush fund which @gtg's Return Proposal #0 ensures that it will not be used on anything unless the HF 20 Cabal gives it's green light. It is my feeling that only by starting at the ground up will the goal of a fair self governance be put back on track. Fixing this incarnation of DPoS seems as monumental as taking the dysfunctional out of the US Congress. It would make me happy to be mistaken on this point however my years of monitoring those involved does not give me much confidence in it happening.
I am not sure if it’s broken or not. Part of me feels that all economies will always be fundamentally broken, or that we still have a very long way until we discover how to unbreak. I still feel this is better than the world economy and all its potential social media competitors, mostly because of the diversity, which is why I want to defend that diversity. The only groups I might not want to defend are groups that are undeniably racist or sexist or looking to cause harm to anyone.
I just try to be where there is innovation, decency and opportunities and Hive still checks those three boxes as far as I can see. There just seem to be a tiny handful of people who can make it a much less pleasant experience for people they don’t like or for arbitrary reasons and so I’d rather stay out of anything that might stir them unless I have a chance to convince my followers or one of the decent whales, and I think there are more decent whales than most victims have given hive credit for…more than the indecent ones. It’s not always easy to figure out which ones are which though because few of them are good communicators.
This kind of perpetual fear should not exist. That kind of control is counterproductive to creativity and authenticity, and will yield sugar-coated and incomplete content. The original point of all this was that a post promoting Hive, from a studied and seasoned Hive/Steem user was downvoted to zero, and the main reason given for the downvotes was to correct excessive rewards. The rewards were not leveled in the described way, they were eliminated completely, and at a time where no counter votes could occur. There are 605 accounts that supported that post, and it only took 3 to erase the rewards entirely. Why was that valued at zero with that many votes? This is clearly an issue guys.
Kenny's 2 min Steem tips video series (along with his countless hours of in-person training) is the sole reason I ever understood or even discovered this blockchain in the first place. I know for a fact there are many others with the same story. I watched him give entire seminars to groups on many occasions.
I feel that I risk a lot to speak my mind on this - but I should not be made to feel at risk in a truly evolved form of governance. It is my sincere hope that I can continue to add value to this blockchain through my original art, music, projects, contests, promotion of other Hive projects, NFTs, blockchain gaming promotion, onboarding, and in general high caliber, concise, and comprehensive publications, and that I will continue to receive the loving support I have earned through my years of hard work, and I don't mean only votes/rewards. The strength of networking in this community is where I have always held the most value. Is there any way we can establish peace bredren? Coming to terms on something here would provide a shining example of how Hive members can work out their differences to achieve massive leaps forward in the evolution of the community and how it is continuously co-created.
We do not have to agree on everything to exist together - we only have to respect one another. If humanity could apply this as a species we could see an end to all wars. We can start that movement of energy right now, how do we want this story to go? Thank you to everyone who has poured their love, passion, and lifeforce into this ecosystem - no matter what side you fall on in this debate. Much love hive fam - love you brotha Kenny. Growth hardly ever comes without pain... if anyone knows that, its me. I just lost the love of my life, and all my hope now is to help make Hive the best blockchain possible - is there anyone here not on board with that? I am down to discuss practical and agreeable solutions, respectfully and peacefully. We are here for each other. Blessings.
Amen
I think ppl misunderstand the difference between respect and courtesy. Respect is earned and courtesy is given, until it's not shown to be appropriate. Respect is too much to ask right from the start and courtesy must be the first act, but the other party must also show they deserve it going forward by their reaction. JS😁
No "disrespect" intended but the view you express sounds judgemental. So, you're not respectful of anyone until you're done judging them?
In Jamaica, it's quite common to get a fist bump from a complete stranger and the only word spoken is "respect". Why, what does that mean? It does not mean that the two individuals are going to agree on anything. It just means, to me, that there's respect for another's freedom and right to be an individual and the same is asked for in return.
Lots of ways to look at things, not saying right or wrong, just saying what's my way. So, are you saying that Kenny has done something that you disrespect him for? That's not been my experience.
... we maybe just disagree.. that's okay
There's a difference in respecting the rights of all and respecting individuals without knowing a thing about them. Regardless of the word they choose to use, I call this a courtesy.
What do courtesy and respect mean to you? Are they interchangeable or do they have distinctive meanings? Is your perspective derived from the current casual definition used today or the actual meanings, loosely or accurately?
Perspective means a lot subjectively, but it doesn't mean one's personal truth is well, truth. Also, judgement is the most important thing we have. Would you respect a murderer? How would you know whether or not he is one without getting to know them? How about a pedophile or rapist?
Is your default respect or courtesy and when do they end or become solidified?
I argue that respect can only be earned on an individual level, which is not equal to the level you used as an example here.
Love first, judgement later. You do it your way, I'll do it mine. :)
😁
Well @elamental and @selfhelp4trolls basically said all that I wanted to say. Especially when it comes to how much you have contributed to Hive Kenny. You have put so much time and energy into the platform and you are all about creating abundance for others.
Also you created Tribesteemup, which of course is now Abundance.Tribe as a means to support content that focused on many topics, not just free speech or Conspiracy Theories (as some like to call them), the list also includes Non-Violence, Philosophy, Veganism, Mindfulness, Community Empowerment, Love, Original Music, Esotericism, Healthy Recipes, Psychedelics and Permaculture, which is such a broad range of topics.
Diversity is so important within any community and being able to embrace that diversity is what really makes communities thrive.
I like to see Hive as one big community and for sure we don't all have to agree, but we should at least allow others to be heard, to share their truth, without fear of retribution.
However, If there is evidence of plagiarism for e.g, by all means then we should intervene.
I have a lot of love for the many wonderful people within this community and for all that I have learnt and continue to learn from being a part of it.
I do hope that the platform gets to reach it's potential xxx
Thank you. Well said. I think there is a solution to this, but there has to be enough support from the people who develop stuff for it to actually become a topic of conversation again. The last two days I’ve been thinking about downvotes that cost money and hive proposal fund support for those who are looking out for spam (if they start downvoting for other reasons they lose they start behaving poorly we can fund different downvotes who look out for abuse.
Not sure how much this idea has been discussed
Such calm and reasonable words in this heated debate. So good to read, thank you! I agree whole-heartedly. I've been looking at @selfhelp4trolls posts and videos, liking them a lot, but this comment deserved a follow.
Thank you so much man. I will keep an eye out for your posts too
This is an incredibly powerful statement and I have to admit I feel the same way sometimes when speaking up. It's wrong and none of us should feel that way. This should be a place to share our ideas and opinions and have a respectful dialogue. Unfortunately, some of the heavyweights feel the need to throw their money around just like the big bullies threw their weight around on the playground in grade school.
I can only hope that your last paragraph holds true.
Thank you. I was quite impressed with myself as I was nervous about who it might stir, though I do think that if you speak with an understanding tone and stay calm and patient there are people who will come to your defense (including whales and devs) because they understand this is a healthy conversation to have and they don’t want their investment to go to shit. That’s why I am not too scared to share anything.
The only issue is that as soon as you’ve been targeted, you have to be more adult than the person who targeted you because otherwise they use your reaction as fuel to justify their actions. It’s not just a hive thing. It’s true of all people who get into heated debates on anything. The only difference here (and the reason I think we need to keep brainstorming solutions) is that the monetization of our behaviors makes power disparities more pronounced. It sucks that the one who is being bullied has to be the adult to have any impact on the situation.
It’s my experience that most of the larger stakeholders aren’t malicious at all, and they care about the chain. There may be an exception or two though…..
I think anyone who gives up is missing out. Even if your rewards go to shit, this place is a fascinating experiment and a great place to find passionate people and deep connections.
I will always stay for the people I meet here, and unless I find another place with no ceo or company that is as diverse and capable of evolving, I prefer Hive.
There were supposed to be two unique properties of STEEM/HIVE, and this was to make it both "smart" and "social." They were as follows: (a.) harnessing crowd wisdom and (b.) using that to distribute the token. They called this Proof-of-Brain. And unfortunately, because it's a dPoS system, Proof-of-Brain can never happen. You've been trying to force PoB to work all this time by adding downvotes in hopes that you can make the vision reality. I get it. In theory, it was perfect, but the truth is it doesn't and cannot work. You'd have to have one account per person, KYC, equal votes, and no automation or trails to make it work, and nobody wants any of that sheite. All of that said, when a small fraction of stakeholders, you and a small handful, when you can null the will of several hundred stakeholders, that's not going to make PoB work. All it does is disenchant people with the platform. I know you are smart, but I have to ask:
When will we let this one go and implement something wiser than the failed PoB mechanism?I completely agree. The rise of the bidbots merely expanded on autovoting, and the utter corruption of free speech oligarchical stakeholders wield on Hive is it's death knell.
They will rule over ashes one day.
Thanks!
I think bid bots have mostly been out of the picture since they jiggered with the system and taxed the content creators 25% in favor of giving those funds to content curators. That didn't change the fact that people act in self-interested ways, but it did change how they go about it. I'm hoping the oligarchical stakeholders will see that acting like dictators of what is acceptable is unacceptable in an age of censorship. The best I can do is appeal to their logic, like with the last comment and hope they see why it doesn't work.
Thanks, valued-customer!
They just moved to dlease.
I didn't name it "proof of brain" and the person who did is long gone, after doing a lot of damage before he left.
It's a nice idea, but the reality is that it is a stake-powered reward system. Stakeholders pay the rewards (through inflation), and if you want rewards you need to post things that a consensus of stakeholders (not just individual ones) want to reward.
It's not perfect, but it's what we have, and, perhaps with tweaks but certainly not KYC, is about the best you can do at the base level with a native permissionless blockchain platform.
Second layer tribes, etc. can do things a different way if they like, so there are other ways to socially earn rewards.
Yeah, I don't know who named it, but I think you spoke up in favor of the downvote regularization and had the final word on the GUI change that implemented it. And that was based on how you interpreted either the white or blue paper. Now, if the downvotes somehow magically helped to tap into crowd wisdom, I could see a point to it, but they don't. Anyhow, when one realizes that Proof-of-Brain isn't smart at all, the downvotes, outside of a limited spectrum of use cases, cause more harm to author morale and the platform than they do help. And This is especially the case when one to three actors can null the will of hundreds of stakeholders. It applies whether they are on a voting trail or not because if they are on a voting trail, it's an intentional act to see that rewards go to specific content. Healthy markets function by consumers supporting things they like. Without crowd wisdom and outside a very narrow band of use cases, flags (or downvotes) are on a par with Molotov cocktails getting thrown through plate glass windows. Nothing good comes from it unless you subscribe to the broken window fallacy.
Addendum:
Interesting moments in Steem's history: The GUI was changed to reflect the idea that the whitepaper explicitly condoned downvotes when @smooth said: "Reducing subjectively excessive payouts is a valid reason for downvoting/flagging" However, when the whitepaper speaks to negative voting, it only says that it is possible, it does not say that it is "VALID." Much like in real life: I can kill a man, I can steal his lunch, I can burn his business down to the ground. The law of the concrete jungle allows for all of these things, but it doesn't mean that one should do them. This post is a prime example, it has the goodwill of 388 stakeholders behind it, and all it took was for your will to censor its rewards. Is this the HIVE that you want? Where the guy with the most stake can say: NO REWARDS FOR YOU!
^That can't possibly be the desired atmosphere you want, can it?
Not especially, but I might have referenced it. Most of what I say is based on my own thought process. If I didn't think the white paper made sense I would say so, and have.
Oh it works the same way for upvotes and nobody (mostly) complains. Hundreds of stakeholdres might see something and decide it is crap, and then one or two whales decide to upvote it. In MOST cases being discussed, the bulk of the rewards being offset by downvotes come from a small number of large upvotes too. It's a stake weighted system, both on the upside and downside. The people with the investment (and getting inflated) get to decide where the rewards go and don't go, according to the size of their investment (and cost of being inflated).
One more thing. If smaller stakeholders wanted to have more influence, one way to do that is to start downvoting more. When you don't use your downvotes, you are taking 20% of your influence over where rewards go and throwing it in the trash. The main reason there are only a small number of downvotes in most cases is because they don't.
And what do we do if we want to downvote a large stakeholder (or delegated account) but fear retribution where they start downvoting all our posts to hell just for thinking of downvoting them? I'm not saying you or acid would do that but I can think of 2 or 3 people, probably the ones I'd be more likely to downvote....
That only happens because of too few downvotes. If there are 50 people or 500 people downvoting, they're not going to retaliate against all of them.
Alternately, smaller stakeholders can stick with downvoting smaller stakeholders (when appropriate). Leave it to the larger stakeholders to downvote the other larger stakeholders. But at least by downvoting something you are maximizing your influence instead of throwing away 20% of it.
This isn't that sort of market. You're getting influence over inflation that doesn't come from your own stake, it comes from all stake. You're not a "consumer", you're a participant in shared decision making.
For this to make economic sense it has to also benefit all stake. If the other stakeholders don't agree that what is being paid out benefits them, you can't have unilateral decision making over that shared resource.
You CAN certainly support what you want as a consumer with your own money. That works just like any market and can't be downvoted.
It says more than possible. It also explains why it is needed: For significant cases where rewards do not add (enough) value, while also noting that not every single little instance needs to be stopped (which I agree with).
Also, it kind of matters that the original system had superlinear rewards. You needed to get a LOT of stake voting in order to get significant rewards. A small amount of staking trying to vote where others don't agree would accomplish nothing (tiny or no payout). That had good and bad elements. When we eliminated, downvoting became more important, not less, because individual upvotes were then able to pay out significantly without any sort of stake consensus.
Right. I think you are speaking to consensus-of-stake. The problem with that is there's no merit, nor rhyme, or reason behind it. There is no wisdom behind it, not when one can null the will of the many. When you abuse the downvote function as you did on this post, all your doing is battling other stakeholders for no good reason. It's a major turn-off for any would-be investors, and it's damn near impossible to rewire people to think that it's well and good. Those kinds of mind tricks only work on the weak-minded. Additionally, the optics from a PR standpoint are terrible. When you have chain dictators who police content why bother opting in when Twatter, Fakespace, and Bootube can give you the same unbellyfeel that you get here. Hell, when fakespace gets their Diem rolled out, what'll be the difference? You can get demonetized over there for your opinions or demonetized here. And over there, there might be a bigger audience.
Fakespace with Diem won't reward you for posting, at least not to anywhere near the degree that happens here. That's the difference. You want stakeholders to pay you, stakeholders are going to decide if and when doing so is useful to stakeholders, both large and small ones, but mostly (for BOTH up and down votes) large.
No one is policing content either. It's rewards. Post whatever you like, as long as it isn't child porn or whatever where the UIs block it. If you get no rewards, then you don't. You still get to post.
Before the downvotes, the only legit reason for flagging was spam, scams, plagiarism, and improperly labeled NSFW or the type of illegal content you mentioned above. That's until you made your proposal in the previously mentioned GitHub issue #215. That brought us to the shit show we have now, where we have a minority of stakeholders who dictate reward censorship on legit content like this post. I'd encourage you to watch the 'Community' episode called 'App Development and Condiments' S05E08. The 'Black Mirror' episode 'Nosedive' S03E01, and 'The Orville' episode 'Majority Rule' S01E07. These will give you an idea about the kind of dystopic hellscape we have here at HIVE because of this willy-nilly opinion-oriented downvoting. Sure it's all fine and dandy for you now, but you may not always be one of the major stakeholders on the block. You're one of the ones setting the standard. And the stakeholders who demonetize politically oriented content because they disagree, that's the same as all the other social media companies. Any interested money power in the age of hyperinflation can buy enough controlling stake in HIVE and run it right off a cliff without the aid of the exchanges. And if that happens, they'll have no obligation to list us in another split. Anyways, if HIVE is going to be a bastion of free speech, censoring rewards on posts that demonstrate the user writing them has a brain is not the way to go.
No, that's not right. The downvotes were always about rewards. The "flag" thing and listed types of abuse thing was added in the UI by the former owner of the web site, with no community discussion and frankly no useful thought process. The actual inventor of the blockchain was against it.
My 'proposal' was to revert that insane idea, it wasn't anything new. It certainly didn't "bring us" to anything, because these issues were always there, and motivated the entire debate even back then.
Nobody is "demonetizing" you in the same sense as centralized platforms. That is ad revenue, which you are free to continue to accept (by putting ads in your posts), and sure enough the blockchain gives you an open permissionless way to receive that revenue which no one is going to block. If you want to be paid by stakeholder inflation, that's something ELSE, which doesn't exist on centralized platforms, and stakeholders necessarily are going to be "voting on paying it", not just "paying it by voting".
In case you don't believe me, you can go look here at the site in 2016. Downvote button right there. Only later was the dumb "flag abuse" idea pushed out.
Well, I'm glad you included the Wayback Machine link. I came here in September of 2016 when there was only an upvote and a flag button. I see now that it launched with an upvote and a downvote button. That appears to have gone on from 03-24-16 through 07-04-16. Sometime between July 5th and 6th of 2016, the downvote button got removed and turned into a flag. We had about three years of that, then the flag for specific use cases, as opposed to a downvote, that got changed sometime on May the 2nd, 2019.
I also see that @timcliff had some role in "making downvotes great again," but in that post, he highlighted shit-post-spam-comments. Now, I can see the stakeholder argument. And maybe some stakeholders want to be completely amoral and perhaps even cruel by excluding certain content from receiving inflation from the reward pool. But here's the thing, whether it be the shit-post comments Tim drew attention to, or Haejin's Elliot curve charts, or your @hbd.funder comments, which presumably does something? I'm no genius on this stuff.
However, the community managed to organize and change the code to tax content creators 25% in favor of giving these rewards to curators for the so-called "greater good." The change, according to your seemingly amoral viewpoint that stakeholders can do whatever they are empowered to do—that must have been unnecessary in your eyes? It should suffice to say that some of these intellectual quagmires hinged upon token functionality that never existed in the first place, and that's PoB.
PoB was supposed to make it all make sense, and if they could have tapped the crowd wisdom, it would have made sense. There'd be no disagreement because rewards would be fair. But as you and I know, it's impossible to tap into crowd wisdom without breaking the other things. But I don't think this should stop the HIVE Layer 1 community from encouraging a healthy downvote culture or outside-of-the-box solutions.
Here's the thing: Every time you get someone new to HIVE, if you have to rewire the way they see the world for it to work, then it's the product that's broken, not the people. I'm sure when the King got his new clothes, the swindlers who sold the "outfit" said something to the effect that only people of royal blood are capable of appreciating this precious fabric. And there you have it, with some simple word magic, a little gaslighting, and a sprinkle of Asch conformity, they buffaloed the sovereign of the land.
Long story short: I think we need to respect the social dApp roots of the platform--it's what drew content creators in to publish here, and it was their positive word-of-mouth that helped to grow our numbers. If we cannot create a system for wisdom to prevail on layer one, then more and more people will become less willing to spend time here and continue to grow this ever-expanding digital library.
We will lose intelligent and generally positive influencers like Kenny. The inverted negative word-of-mouth will set the tone for would-be stakeholders. And the market will continue to judge us as it has, and it will continue to find us lacking. This hostile working environment will cause the token to remain lower in value than it could be because of the unproductive and generally caustic atmosphere set by a few stakeholders. You are the minority on this one.
We can certainly work to improve the social dApp component. I would suggest that is probably best done by further supporting and emphasizing second layer innovation, which is frankly where most of the social innovation has ever happened on Hive/Steem anyway, as you can see from looking at those wayback links where things look pretty damn close to the same now as five years ago. It's too slow and too much of a quagmire to try to build social into the base layer. It was done that way in 2016 largely for feasibility, and for a frankly questionable at best business model of a startup that no longer exists. Times have changed.
The hbd.funder comments support the hbdstabilizer, which both supports the stability of HBD, along with earning a profit (at least 1 million USD) for Hive (largely, though this is somewhat speculative, in the form of higher HIVE price, which also feeds back to higher rewards for creators). The stakeholders voting for hbd.funder, including myself, think those benefits are a good use of reward funds and that they help Hive, which is why we vote for it.
I figured I'd address both of your comments in this one. I can appreciate your work with the HBD stabilizer if it's going to try and peg to the dollar or be stable(ish). The problem now is that we're rapidly entering into hyperinflation, and I'm sure we'll probably go full-Zimbabwe with it. I don't know if this was ever done with the so-called "world's reserve currency" in the past. I see a lot of turbulence ahead, and a dollar peg might become more and more useless as the dollar becomes more and more valueless. And then they'll transition to digital. Who knows if pegging to something digital will be a transition for the work that lays ahead for you. Regarding second layer innovation. If you believe HMTs, as opposed to sidechain tokenomics, are in HIVE's near future, then maybe you could do people a solid for several months and put the velvet glove back on the iron fist, if not only for the sake of optics.
Maybe so. We have the option to take an exit ramp on the HBD peg and switch to something else if the dollar degrades into uselessness. We know how to do it and it's been discussed numerous times.
I think here you are leaving the space where you are objectively trying to achieve something that cannot be objectified. The vocal criticism of those who complain about downvotes is a value that can be called the value of "conflict in existence".
If you were a cool rational being here, you could probably readily agree that the presence of conflict makes a great value contribution in the social space of communication. I usually compartmentalise my subjective judgement of what I consider not worthy of approval in such postings (complaining, bruised egos etc.). I can abstain from any vote, but simply comment.
But I see the overriding potential of such postings precisely in the fact that, as a rule, the engagement of the comments that then start are quite passable: To see conflicting views being debated with each other. This form of engagement can hardly be found anywhere else. I think that can be readily admitted.
Now, one can say pejoratively that no one needs such a thing when it comes to advancing the cause and would probably meet with approval, but just not totally. Those who open the barrel and criticise loudly may not be totally right, but they are not totally wrong either. On another level, however, I would argue that the obviousness of conflict in the public sphere deserves as much of a presence as the obviousness of non-conflict, triviality and superficiality.
I would find it a nice surprise to see such gouged by the usual downvoters, just as it would be surprising to see the usual upvoters criticise it.
However, as long as one pretends that there are two firm fronts and neither individual is willing to admit that he is nevertheless on both fronts, the demand for proof of the other's probity is rather hypocritical insofar as one's own probity cannot be clearly proven. Since neither can be proven nor not proven, the impulses to try to do so nevertheless have a rather paradoxical character. My interpretation of "What is of value?" would consider the naming of this paradox as valuable.
I didn't entirely understand that, but I do agree that in cold rational terms, conflict can have value to social media. Many people would consider that a problem, but it is what it is.
Thank you, I find this is a great insight. Conflict has in my eyes potential in many directions. It can be used for hardening the fronts, it can be used to communicate on a different level, it can be seen as an asset, very particular for us humans.
Maybe you remember a quote from Starwars where Darth Vader denies the very fact of having a conflict.
While it's obvious, that there is, for us viewers :)
I don't remember that line. I'll watch for it if I see the film again,
You downvoted him once before this from what I can see.
Man, these idiots aren't even trying anymore.
Probably more than once, but that's not really the point.
Left him a more "calm" comment just now. I think some people know I have a short temper for stupidity and may say things I don't mean or aren't completely true after attempting to deal with this shit for a long while now, but trying to use that to defend his position may probably be more lame than anything I've said.
I swear this shit couldn't be better if you were writing a script about wannabe dictators. Am I being punked? 😜
Translation:
lol, well, I tried. @selfhelp4trolls
guess he feels it's more important to continue whatever narrative he thinks will help his rep or hurt mine. Cute.
The fact that you address your own faults here man, I got nothing to criticize. I won’t blame you at all if he decides to leave or do something that invites more downvotes.
Some people just have so little trust for those with power that they can’t distinguish that these are individuals with their own approaches and plans. There may be conspiracies sometimes but not everything is a conspiracy. If he looked at your activity on chain over the years he’d see that you are a stand up dude. I can’t vouch for 100% of anyone’s activities but you’ve used your power more responsibly than almost anyone I know on chain or off.
Funny though, some of the other downvoters responded with comments that don’t really seem to address any of my concerns in the slightest.
I said, I think that “My stake I can do what I want with it” attitude without a concerted effort to continuously distribute power is going to eventually lead to a system where a few people dictate everything which will be a shitty sell on the “decentralized future” pitch. Sounds like the definition of centralized control. Same shit as what we are used to, just a different flavor.
So I see why a lot of people don’t trust those with more stake and input into development when they see that kind of attitude.
I think that they’ll realize they need to be more careful with how they wield power and spread the stake out more when it comes back and hits them in the wallet eventually, but they don’t seem to have much respect for me or my opinion so I’ll leave it alone and hope that they are convinced by the example that you set @acidyo
I’ll be patient and willing to contribute to the ecosystem so long as we have enough people who are trying to make this place more fair, diverse and truly decentralized.
Thanks man 🙏
The fact that you address your own faults here man, I got nothing to criticize. I won’t blame you at all if he decides to leave or do something that invites more downvotes.
Some people just have so little trust for those with power that they can’t distinguish that these are individuals with their own approaches and plans. There may be conspiracies sometimes but not everything is a conspiracy. If he looked at your activity on chain over the years he’d see that you are a stand up dude. I can’t vouch for 100% of anyone’s activities but you’ve used your power more responsibly than almost anyone I know on chain or off.
Funny though, some of the other downvoters responded with comments that don’t really seem to address any of my concerns in the slightest.
I said, I think that “My stake I can do what I want with it” attitude without a concerted effort to continuously distribute power is going to eventually lead to a system where a few people dictate everything which will be a shitty sell on the “decentralized future” pitch. Sounds like the definition of centralized control. Same shit as what we are used to, just a different flavor. (It’ll also stifle innovation if they scare off anyone who doesn’t agree with their ideals.)
So I see why a lot of people don’t trust those with more stake and input into development when they see that kind of attitude.
I think that they’ll realize they need to be more careful with how they wield power and spread the stake out more when it comes back and hits them in the wallet eventually, but they don’t seem to have much respect for me or my opinion so I’ll leave it alone and hope that they are convinced by the example that you set @acidyo
I’ll be patient and willing to contribute to the ecosystem so long as we have enough people who are trying to make this place more fair, diverse and truly decentralized.
Thanks man 🙏
I'm curious why you 100% down-voted this post, which is very much not about rewards or voting, and entirely focused on the libel being published by a top 20 witness.
It seems like this comment (which came well before your downvote) was proven false by that down-vote.
Am I missing something?
I see it as the same sort of insider drama. By all means, go ahead and post and debate but I don't see added value to Hive that justifies rewarding it (but if enough stake disagrees with me, it'll get rewarded anyway)
That makes Hive look bad, because it's got too much centralization, especially in the hands of people acting in the ways I documented.
And it doesn't matter that the rewards were all given away to communities that support tons of people on Hive?
And you know most of the stake that hasn't already voted for my posts (and been cancelled out) is either one of the people downvoting, someone completely AFK, or someone who won't risk retaliation by talking about this glaring issue.
I guess it's in the eye of the beholder, and if you don't mind me saying so, you have an obvious interest is claiming that you getting downvoted "looks bad". I'm not buyng it.
Document all you like of course. The debate is reasonable, just not pay-worthy IMO.
As I've made clear hundreds of times, since my years-past posts about downvotes, this isn't about me, and it isn't about rewards.
It is about the unwillingness of some large stakeholders to allow content they find mentally challenging to be seen by the [hive-scale] masses, and the massive amount of centralization that their success in doing so demonstrates.
This is about the dozens of people who have commented about how they were attacked & zero'd out, the people I've specifically shown as examples, the people reaching out to me privately to thank me for calling this out (because they fear retribution), the many MANY people that have already left because of this reason, and the many more who will never come here because of it.
It's not your fault, altleft's fault, azircon's fault, curangel's fault, etc.
It's mostly the faulty of a semi-idealistic system, which was sold/marketed/pushed specifically as a solution for free speech and non-corporate content online, in a decentralized platform... even though it was clearly designed to just be another capitalistic oligarchical shit-show. Thanks Ned & Dan :-/
That, and it's simply because almost every single person using this blockchain was born, raised, traumatized, indoctrinated, and now lives in Babylon.
Can't really expect them to act differently than the "celebrities," "politicians," and "executives" that their religion places as the highest class of humans.
Also Thanks for the share in the post rewards man
Have been following you for a very long time, Kenny. We have not always agreed about everything, yet have always found your content to have value and for you to be a valued member of the community.
The HIVE/STEEM HF exposed to all the broken nature of the platform(s). This event seems like another sad nail in that coffin. The HF 20 Cabal would have been wise by simply rebranding the fork as SplinterLand instead of HIVE, however no one could have predicted the craze of NFTs at the time perhaps. SplinterLand is what is most likely keeping the lights on at this stage.
Hopefully your content will still be available via Odysee, Kenny, so will look for you there. ✌️💛
I have been downvoted to zero on all my pending rewards posts 2 times in hive life of 4 months. Reason: I upset whales. One time I commented on a whales account "where he was stating that splinterlands posts are shit and should be downvoted if you see them in sponsor section", I quickly tell him that I am on hive because of Splinterlands. I was downvoted by that whale because I supported splinterlands. And the other story is even bit shady related to reward pool abuse. I will not risk giving any more details as I suffered 100s of dollars loss cause of it. No whale silenced me, they neutralise me.
Thanks for mentioning about splinterlands.
Thanks for your input to the thread.
Sorry but you shouldn't see something you didn't own as a loss, it's pending for a reason and should be considered as such. If they downvoted you just for that, then that is quite shitty.
Actually it's my understanding that @dlmmqb was being downvoted by the Leo folks after bragging onchain to a newbie that he & a friend had "cracked" onealfa's voting bot, and also had some sort of system using leofinance and pob tags to milk curation.
https://peakd.com/hive-167922/@dlmmqb/my-apology-blog-to-leofinance
I bring this up because this whole "I upset whales so they downvote me" narrative is more than a bit disingenuous. He did something shady & there were consequences. And to be fair, he does seem to be working to combat abuse onchain with HW & HiveDR now, so maybe he's learned from his mistakes.
He's taking an interesting position in discussing the other instance. "I upset whales" isn't exactly what transpired. What did transpire was textbook.
It sucks that he was denied those rewards. Truly, but if the event is going to be discussed, then he should please discuss in a bit more detail than "I upset whales". Anyway, it's in the past and dlmmqb is doing some good work now.
Sorry sir if I had to talk about misuse of tags or spreading misinformation, I can clearly say it. Since you are on discord, If you keep the information safe, I will discord u. !PIZZA
NOTE: IT WAS CLEARLY ANOTHER ISSUE, I FACED.
Thanks for the mention, I am truely working hard to combat abuse specially within pakistani community and the article you shared and aciyodo reblog about Plagiarism, if I am correct then it was really help for me.
Note: Believe me when one day I will feel secure, I will explain my self or pass my research to some big whale who can come in front. Till then the things you said are completely correct but do you consider this that maybe there is a slight chance that I know something about reward pool abuse that others don't know?
I am here to grow and work for the betterment of HIVE as much as I can but I will not forgive the abusers(to those I am currently afraid off) in the long run.
Curious to see how this plays out and what solutions you have in mind for your next post.
Until then, I'll have my popcorn ready for the fireworks.
My two cents.. please keep busting out in depth content like this and keep onboarding new people onto this platform. The people have the power, even if a few people have all the money.
👆
Added no value??? Well, no offense to anyone but this is one of the most righteous things I've ever read. A roadmap to civilization.
I know Azircon and to a lesser extent Acidyo from around the chain, I don't really get why they're downvoting you, also for the record I think Acid's claims aren't at all fair - I know you've always acted with integrity even if some people don't like your opinions.
Just keep on doing what you're doing I say! I'm sure you're not the type to let this get you down!
That's true, they're not completely fair but after reading that he's purposely going to shit on Hive and tell anyone he knows to stay away I can't help but tell someone to go fuck himself and downvote him on the way out. He's a tiny percentage of people getting downvoted and it occurred for maybe a week max, this sort of entitlement will face downvotes from me any day of the week and vulgarity if I feel like it as well after seeing it happen time and time again with the same methods and excuses over and over.
You are doing fine, continue to make content and let the situation calm down
Way more than fine, life is wonderful!
I've got a few more posts lined up before I walk away, and then I will most likely still be using Odysee/lbry to post vlogs.
It seems like you may have missed much of the discussion - these are flaws inherent in the design of Hive, which have been being abused for years, and which I and MANY others have been trying to bring an end to for just as long.
Thanks for the comment... but I get the sense that you only skimmed the post.
Or maybe I just was hoping for a different ending. Wish you well either way.
To be clear, this is the king's approach:
A very slightly veiled threat to down-vote the people I support, because I'm calling him out.
The comment section has gone full shit show.
I'm perplexed that none of these low value make-up nor elementary school level crafts trending posts don't get downvoted to remove at least half of their earnings. They increased exponentially to spam level, because they've become an easy way to game the rewards.
That being said, the Abundance.Tribe and formerly NaturalMedicine are two communities who are responsible for a good amount of retention on Hive. While I understand where Acidyo is coming from I don't agree that this conversation hurts Hive.
On the contrary, free speech requires you accept the speech you disagree with or are even appalled by. The problem is autovoting, which has destroyed interaction, because it took the need to scroll and read content to assess the quality out of the equation.
This splinters the platform and separates everyone further into tribes. Because of this, no one sees what happens outside their own. They stay in these tribes, partly for the interaction, but mostly for rewards. Proof of this was the attempt by acidyo to push others into the more niche communities, yet users keep using his, because they feel there's better discovery for 'THEM' there.
Same with Gems. I've watched users use NaturalMedicine and Abundance.Tribe earning more than they deserve, but end up posting to Gems for the larger votes on lower quality content. I believe this happens, because we are inherently selfish. On top of that, too many are overlooking the real problem; high stakes not curating quality content.
Part of it is fear of retribution. Another part is complacency, because votes are limited. I think cleaning up the trending feed as a whole is a better solution than targeting a minuscule topic range. Allowing the seemingly negative or even damaging topics to live alongside the positive is necessary to show free speech does exist here.
This whole thing that only the positive should shine through is not realistic nor representative of the real world. I think the Abundance.Tribe is guilty of this as well. I forget which pillar it is or the exact words, but requiring nonconfrontational speech is not healthy nor free speech.
My words are my responsibility, but your reaction is yours. I had a problem with this one pillar since day one, but figured I'd see how far you guys considered it as necessary. It turns out it's pretty important to enough of you that have power it became a problem for me and it hinders free speech by putting the blame of another's reaction on the messenger, rather than where the blame truly lies. This is in opposition to common sense, responsibility and Anarchist philosophy itself.
That being said, I hope you stay kenny, because if it isn't about rewards, then the downvotes won't matter and you'll carry on and keep the conversation going. I look forward to your suggestions. I myself think changing how staking works here is the only solution, but it seems most don't want to lose that power they bought in many cases. Power should never be for sale...
P.S.- if it isn't about rewards, you should have never mentioned that you worry about those who use this as their sole income. This isn't supposed to be a welfare system, UBI nor the only way to earn an income. First off that's socialism, which is in opposition to Anarchy. Second it stifles the growth of those receiving it without question. While they may be creating quality content, they aren't earning new skills to get them by when/if these earnings are affected... This was never meant to be nor should be anyone's sole income.
First off, thanks for the multiple great comments you've left over the last few days. I really appreciate your voice & opinion on the matter, and that you're more than willing to call out folks on all sides of this conversation.
Yep, and it seems like all the folks going around down-voting "controversial" content all agree that the not-controversial trash that usually dominates trending - is trash.
How they choose when to enforce, and when not to enforce, this idea of "reigning in rewards" is one of the telling parts, imho.
Exactly!
This is the entire idea of free expression, and open debate/conversation - because anything that's covered up will always fester, and lies can never survive in the light of day.
If all of us are just "no fact truthers," then why can/will nobody here even make the slightest attempt at actually challenging the things we say?
Just censorship.
I can certainly agree that auto-voting can and often is a big issue, especially when many folks aren't mindful of what their votes are doing.
As I mentioned above, and in other comments to acid, one of the reasons that I post less often on my account than I otherwise would is because I have two whales with me set on a pretty high upvote - sometimes more than I think a given post should make in rewards.
I agree with both of these statements, and I know that most of us "controversial" folks are more than happy to have things topping trending that we disagree with, especially if there is a willingness for debate/dialectic in the comments.
I'm very curious which of the 8 pillars you interpreted as a need for not having real talk?
Yes, everything in my experience is my responsibility, everything in your experience is yours, and so on. This is the most foundational understanding of reality that I have.
That's why, when someone got reactive about what you were posting, I reversed their pushing you out.
It's also why, when you were reactive by them doing it, I couldn't force them to make reparations or anything.
You could have just come back in, but you chose not to... Yes, with the reason given being that you wanted them to invite you back in, but still your choice.
Alas, as I mentioned in your first or second comment on the other post, I think that issues like that were bound to happen by trying to just smash together a giant curation list I was building and the idea of a community of some kind.
One of the issues with money-based systems is that they greatly reduce the amount of real connection, real communication, and real talk that people are willing to have, because of the financial concerns.
Whether I stay or go, I will most certainly be pushing this conversation, and the desperate need for Hive to re-orient itself (or for an actual free-speech fork) for as long as I'm here.
At this point I'm most likely going to only curate on Hive - so that I can keep supporting awesome content and people, and the cabal has no way to do anything to me without showing their colors by attacking hundreds of innocent creators.
My content, however, will likely become exclusive to Odysee at this point, because I get WAY more reach & interaction over there, even though I've barely been on the platform for a year - Plus there is no dPoS, up/downvotes are only for show, and nobody can make your posts disappear.
But that's the thing, Hive/Steem has always been about the rewards, for everyone. It's the only reason it hit a million users back in the day, the only reason any bigger influencers ever came here and posted, etc. Think azircon would have dropped hundreds of thousands if he wasn't looking to profit off this place?
My argument isn't that I'm not here "for the rewards" - but rather that I'm here for the rewards I get to distribute.
I understand your reasoning and since I don't really use Hive seriously, I shouldn't have even suggested you stay.
As for my choice about coming back into the Abundance.Tribe, I couldn't get past that pillar(which I'm not even going to bother to find), of which the 'said' user inviting me back could have helped me to overlook it. In the end, it's listed as a requirement that members adhere to all the pillars and I cannot.
I know myself and my direct approach tends to rub ppl the wrong way, so here I am doing just fine without the tribe. 'His' inability to humble his power even a little told me all I needed to know.
I'm not greedy, because I've built an extensive skillset and can live outside the system without money. All anarchists or 'variations of' should be able to as well. If anyone depends on Hive to live off of solely, in my opinion they are leaches and cannot be any variation of an anarchist.
That being said, I wish you the best and understand you did not take a position against me and I harbor no ill fealings towards you, nor did I in the past. I simply don't agree with your full set of pillars, but do see the positive your tribe has added to the platform.
It's all good - I've been getting bombarded with Telegram, Discord, and comments about sticking around :-P
The thing is, I've been watching these problems get worse and worse for years on Hive, and I've watched our ability to combat them decrease as well, as the stake shifts more and more into their hands - One of the reasons for this downvoting of the opposition is that it guarantees they keep gathering stake at a faster and faster rate than us.
This reminds me of one of my favorite quotes from Robert Heinlein, in Time Enough For Love:
“A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.”
I wouldn't go that far - since we're in a very odd world-state right now, where money is required for most things, and there are only so many ways to convert time into money, without requiring a whole lot of starting capital (like building a business or even launching a smaller project.)
Besides, most people who reach the philosophical realm of anarchy still have a lot of de-programming and re-programming to go through, to get rid of decades of state indoctrination and media brainwashing... Plus there's all sorts of different angles to take.
Plenty of the an-cap types are dedicated to crypto because they see it as the way out of the old system, and many of those folks don't have nearly the skillset they need for the real world (outside of Babylon)
That said, I also agree that self-sufficiency is absolutely necessary for true freedom.
Thanks, I appreciate that!
That whole debacle was one of the big pieces that started shifting what I thought/hoped for TSU to become. While there is certainly less of a cohesive "community" now (no discord, no "members," no autovotes) - the project has been able to support FAR more people by making these changes.
Hope you're having a magnificent day!
That's all DPoS is.
I see the value in Dpos if implemented right. Stake is valuable and there should be perks for hodling, but it doesn't need to give one more power than another in governance, for example. I don't think it needs to be done away with, but think it could use a restructuring.
The problem is, those who get to make the decision to do so are unlikely to give up that power. None of the forks(alternatives using the exact first layer) have addressed this, so I don't see them as an answer to much.
It's pretty simple really. If you want to remove stakeholder votes from rewards, then remove stakeholders as the ones paying the rewards from inflation. Create a new system with rewards paid for and controlled by a subcommunity with different allocation rules, or rewards coming from ad revenue and allocated in some other way, or something else.
I don't think it is necessary for DPoS to involve rewards at all. The social posting and rewarding system just happens to be an app that was built on the chain, but it's not the only way, and not part of DPoS itself.
I think only people who secure the network should even be rewarded with Hive. 2nd layer solutions that are out now easily can reward people in specific tokens for a community.
Fine with me. The social app is basically an app. It happened to be built into the blockchain, but from a software design or blockchain consensus point of view there really isn't any reason for it. The model of "smart contract" used in Bitshares (predecessor of Steem, predecessor of Hive) was code included in the core blockchain consensus code itself, but the world has moved on and that's not really seen as ideal at this point. The social app should probably be second layer, yes.
So stakeholders are paying inflation that they have not earned or received yet, but post author and voter rewards aren't theirs until the receive them?
Rules for thee but not for me.
Stakeholders are paying for inflation every single block no matter what they do, because they are the ones being inflated. If you show up looking for rewards with low or no stake, inflation doesn't cost you anything. And that's perfectly okay, the system is designed to potentially reward you, and maybe you will get some rewards, but you're not entitled to them nor entitled to much of a say over who gets them.
Stakeholders can't avoid being inflated (well, at least not without a hard fork), but they can and do have a say (in proportion to their stake, i.e. contribution to the cost of inflation) over what that inflation is used for.
That means, if I understand it correctly, that those who are squinting at their payouts here are stupid enough to believe what it says on the box? Well, insofar as I myself trust the advertising that is made for a product, I haven't learned very much in life, have I?
However, shouldn't it then rain downvotes for postings that do marketing and have catchwords on their packaging that suggest something on the social app that can't really be adhered to there, because the actors suggest to the curious customer that he can find a livelihood here? In any case, I see the upvotes fluttering in everywhere in praise of these "unimagined possibilities". Consequently, you should basically take the wind out of the sails of such postings too, because they suggest something that goes against the purely rational principle of block building.
If you took away the social app altogether, what would be left? A pure cryptocurrency that wants to experience being traded and financial transactions without banks as intermediaries in between? But where is Hive traded? Not on binance and kraken, as far as I know. As we are experiencing, anonymous transactions are not tolerated or crypto trading platforms are pulling out of it, or am I seeing this wrong? I am not a pro at all of this.
A cynic might say that it is these hopefuls who take the advertising for granted and spread enthusiasm that basically ensure that their own illusion is maintained. The emotionless calculating stakeholder who is in charge here can be quite happy with that, can't he?
If I understand Hive as a casino (which I think, comes closest to what it is), where I play with chips, wouldn't it be the case that I also want to exchange these chips at some point?
Why then all the fuss about social engagement, as read above? Why the mantra of "holding"? Why is it that individual bloggers are expected to engage in their comment sections? Things are being mixed up here that seem to contradict each other.
The jester would probably laugh and say, "Well, we never said you couldn't make a living on Hive, however, we don't rule out that possibility either."
That's basically a form of promise without a promise. It can be done, of course, and we see it being done. Looking at it that way, one could interject that those who believe the advertisements are also the ones doing the advertising. Advertising is always tied to the emotional sensations people experience through it. To that extent, I could dismiss it as romantic nonsense. But still give my thumbs up - lol
You just can't say that too loudly, because then you'd probably be stoned from all sides, both by the hopeful bloggers and by those who are in charge here, because it just doesn't play well, does it?
I don't worry in that respect, I do not put my woe and well to this place, for the better wisdom. With my acquired stake I can, as they say, do what I want, can't I?
I'm not sure what you're talking about. Where does it say you are entitled to rewards on any particular post?
I think, I made that obvious.
You have the marketers, right? And you have the white paper. Those two don't go always together, that much seems to be clear to me.
I did not say anything about entitlement, did I?
There is some marketing. It could definitely be better.
Every post is marketing.
Not all are effective
One thing that posts resulting in folks coming to Hive to read them feature is payout, and prior to that, potential payout. Since it's not a feature on most articles folks investigating a topic find on articles, it's likely to be noted with interest.
In cases where a well researched and written post is affected by significant downvoting, that is tantamount to a flag on Hive itself, potentially eliminating the marketing power of such posts altogether.
When such things happen, we're shooting ourselves in the foot.
It's all a matter of degree.
:) The answer is: probably nowhere in this exact term, as far as I can tell.
But it's the suggestion which is out there, big time. As I said, you can say "it's nowhere said, so why would anyone assume it?" And my answer is "because, in various and colorful ways, its the underlaying message". Would you really say that this is not the case?
The marketing around rewards has never been great. I don't disagree with numerous wrong impressions being given. We should work to improve it, but communicating about a complex system to an audience who aren't experts on the technology isn't that easy either.
Agreed. Basically, advertising is never very accurate. It's over the top or it's meaningless. Advertising, by its nature, wants to draw attention to something and uses the simplest of means: emotional appeal.
My initial assertion that anyone who does not know this has not yet learned much in life stands by it :)
I don't believe that anything can be improved in advertising for this reason. It is what it is. It cannot tell the truth and it cannot convey complexity.
So I would agree with you that it is not easy and even add: it is impossible. I like to come to this realization. It has to be "talked through" for me.
It is what we do NOT say that an observant and life experienced mind nevertheless recognises.
People need to know for themselves what they take away from something they want to be a part of. To see oneself as a victim because one has been "misled" is therefore a less than honest argument, just as it is dishonest of marketers to suggest that there is some kind of equal opportunity for all. So insofar as we recognise that everyone is nevertheless hypocritical as well as carrying a share of knowledge with them, we can rest easy, can't we?
Where it gets tricky is when a trend is suspected that involves the overwhelming of currently politically unpopular views. There is undeniable evidence of this, which does not stop at online communication. What appears to be the stronger power out there is also expressed here. Where there is a powerful overhang in the experienced "outside reality", here in the online communication space there is a very sensitive reaction to any form of oppression or where this is perceived as such. I think we know the hottest issues.
My (unasked for - lol ) suggestion to you would be to perhaps make a surprisingly different decision from the ones you are known for? I don't know you, so I can't say whether you have this or that tendency for me.
I do that sometimes as to not make it easy to be identified to this or that camp.
True
This is a fundamental problem that confounds centralization. Accumulating stake is an effect of parasitization, and that is the source of overlords which derange human society.
For ~250k years, humanity lived in egalitarian tribes that had little ability to project force, because surplus wealth was almost impossible to create. Everyone had to provide their own goods and services by hand because technology was pre-industrial. Upon the advent of agriculture surpluses became possible, and centralization enabled parasitization and overlords, who used surpluses to sustain security specialists, gangs of armed thugs, that preyed on society, and societies.
Today decentralization of means of production is the cutting edge of technological advance across all fields of industry. As individuals and communities avail themselves of suitable means of production, overlords are prevented from parasitizing their production, which inures to the producers themselves. Centralization is being deprecated, and overlords sustaining gangs of armed thugs with it.
Decentralization is the cure, and centralization is shown to be a temporary phase necessary to the advance of technology from the Stone Age to the Space Age.
Government is centralization. When we are able to manufacture our means of personal security we are not required to purchase them from shartmart, where WMDs suitable to eliminate gangs of armed thugs on which overlords depend are not sold.
Hive was capable of being decentralized, and marketed as such, but instead HP is centralized, which centralizes political power. While this fraud lasts it enables oligarchs to sell free speech produced by content creators for tokens through the mechanism of curation rewards. Using flags, oligarchs are able to prevent upstarts from joining their ranks, and return HP to the pool, where they are able to extract the vast majority of it into their wallets.
Free speech has been marked for destruction, and CBDCs are being introduced presently. The UN has begun taking sites off the web by preventing DNS resolution, and CBDCs are only able to be forced on people bereft of other forms of money. It is obvious that Hive and cryptocurrency exchanges will be eliminated shortly so that they will not be used to prevent enslavement to CBDCs, social credit algorithms, and the vaxpass.
The global monetary system is beginning it's final collapse, as Evergrande defaulted, again, which is causing the ~$60T Chinese property market to collapse and the effects to spread throughout the global monetary system. Neither fiat, shiny rocks, nor cryptocurrency will be available to people shortly.
People that have exchanged their financial resources for nominal means of decentralized production will be able to provide their necessary goods and services without being dependent on CBDCs. I am unaware of another way people can remain free of subjugation to overlords who completely control extant centralized production of essential goods and services.
As the ongoing genocide of humanity continues, it becomes increasingly impossible to conceal, and despite the fact that people desperately try to maintain their illusion that they have not been fooled, the survivors will increasingly become aware of reality, and the fools will continue to die.
Eventually this will become a hot war, and the troops necessary to overlords to project force will themselves grasp that they are being chemically castrated, injected with experimental genetic therapy, and are not overlords that will become owners of everything, but instead property of the very overlords they serve. Many have been purged already who have refused to become GMOs, but even those left will die or grasp they have been fooled, and overlords will become unable to project force.
I do not expect Bill Gates and Klaus Schwab are going to become Rambos, dual wielding assault weapons and defeating massive mobs of protestors armed with sticks and rocks by force of arms. I think they have DUMBs to retreat to for that reason, and have undertaken to create GMOs to replace reason with obedience and preserve their ability to project force.
However, individuals able to manufacture their own means of security from hordes of weaponized GMOs and swarms of drones will not be limited to 1000 year old firearms technology, and the ability of individuals and communities to manufacture WMDs will render armed gangs of thugs and swarms of drones obsolete.
Not without horrific cost, sadly.
That is when decentralization will restore human society to it's original egalitarian state, in and for which it evolved. Oligarchs will no longer be able to project force, eventually the DUMBs will be occupied by corpses, and people will take to the stars, as is our destiny foretold by the prophets of ages past.
Hive is metaphorically an organoid of society, and is one of the last vectors of free speech because of it's peculiarities of governance. Use it to study centralization and communicate forthrightly while it remains.
It isn't more.
I agree, Hive 100% follows the structure of Centralized Western society. Your comment was extremely detailed. I hope you've posted it as a blog as well.
I am glad I am not alone in seeing how things are proceeding. We are facing significant threat wherever we are today, and despite the drone of propaganda bots and enemedia talking heads, I am confident that the majority of humanity strongly disapproves of ongoing censorship, propaganda, and coercive war crimes and genocide ongoing, which consensus is concealed from us by censorship. Just as a few oligarchs on Hive can outflag hundreds of ordinary upvotes, a few oligarchs that can fund enemedia lies while censoring our voices on social media can appear to control the narrative, and expect thereby to convince good people they are alone in their rational opinions.
It is important that we speak to one another directly and ascertain our mutual considerations and points of contention with ongoing political degradation, so that we can mutually act to rectify that damage that has been done, and prevent worse harm that is certain to follow if we allow it.
The oldest trick in the propaganda book is to make people believe there's a broad consensus for things there is actually a broad consensus against, and I am confident almost no one is eager to be enslaved to the WEF through CBDCs, social credit algorithms, and the vaxpass. Recent revelations of the massive numbers of dead from the jabs and from the CEO of Pfizer that after the present boosters for OG covid, he intends to force three more on us for Omicron, are absolutely stopping previously compliant folks in their tracks, and forcing them to reckon with the blatant lies that have been put forward to conceal jab damage as 'climate change syndrome' and surreal claims that it's normal for little children to have heart attacks and strokes, and in the light of the 75 years the FDA is demanding that the Pfizer data on jab safety remain secret.
No one trusts secret soyence that has an opinion worthy of consideration. The people of the world are being forced by unending jabs, utterly oppressive government, and lurid images of athletes and children being killed en masse, to forcibly dismantle the extant governments of the West, because they're going to kill us all if we don't.
It is, of course, necessary to first destroy an edifice before you can replace it, as the NWO requires to be implemented, and while we should be cautious that we are being trapped by the NWO to do their dirty work in rebelling against our corrupt governments, we should also not shy from doing the needful in that regard, because it is obvious that if we don't we'll all be killed by an unending stream of jabs.
The Prime Minister of New Zealand has stated she will never stop forcing jabs on people as long as there are people unjabbed, and expects the jab program to never, ever end. Since each jab causes a certain percentage of deaths, and does cumulative harm to those that yet survive, an unending stream of jabs is eventually 100% fatal to 100% of the subjects. She has literally promised to kill everyone in her power. It doesn't matter that hanging such psychopaths for treason and genocidal war crimes is a trap. Not prosecuting and executing such fiends is literal suicide, and worse yet.
We just need to prevent the NWO from wresting our freedom from us thereafter, though they collapse the global monetary system to starve us into submission. They're going to try to force us to cull livestock because it is a vector for covid, and a lot of wildlife is as well. If they can destroy our livestock, we can be forced to eat whatever bugs they can dish up out of their labs, or starve.
We need to prepare for that battle, because it is the fight for our lives.
Oh, I'm ready and am at a place where their rules have little effect on me. That being said, there will be a time where I may have to die to fight for freedom.
But... I'm fine with those willingly following the narrative. They are in the way of my freedom, so am fine with them causing damage to themselves. For this reason, I don't feel the need to spread the word. Those who know already know. Those who don't aren't listening anyway.
I refuse to allow 'them' to affect my mental health. When the time comes I'm stepping up, til then the lemmings are better off just complying.
People I love are dying. I am inconsolable, and I seek to do what can be done to keep others from grieving as I do today. We are strengthened when we suffer the loss of our people by the wretched misery we endure, because knowing others we love are at risk too will drive us as little else could to act to prevent their harm, for those yet left to us are all the more essential and needed in our lives.
I understand needing to protect our health, particularly our hearts and minds.
That's why, as you state, when it's time we will step up and act. But it's time now to ensure the common mass culls of livestock due to disease that have been undertaken in the past are not allowed to utterly deprive us of our sustenance. Supplies in many places are already short.
Let's make sure we aren't facing famine, because actual plague almost always follows famine, and people weakened by hunger are less able to survive every challenge, and particularly pathogens. Even if we only take a couple pet rabbits, or a couple hens, we may secure a lifeline by that action.
I guess I'm fortunate to not be that position and food won't be an issue for me, through a multipronged approach. I'm consoled by the fact that it is mostly an individual choice at this point, minus a few examples and it was their decision. That also makes it ethical enough in my eyes.
I started writing a long reply to you here, but it turned into it's own post!
It occurs to me that there is a clear dynamic on hive between decentralisation/centralisation and the effectiveness of POB and thus Hive's own success as a token. Here are some more of my thoughts on this:
https://peakd.com/hive-150329/@ura-soul/the-dynamics-of-dpos-and-pob-pitch-money-against-freedom-in-a-constant-brawl-for-decentralisation-over-centralisation-but-we-
100% upvote, DPOS is power for sale.
Nailed it.
Justin Sun came in and paid for power, boom he took control and has the power.
Someone could do the same to Hive.
It is ongoing on Hive, as it was on Steem. @ned no longer is part of that oligarchy, and Sun Yuchen may not be, but an oligarchy wields power on Hive, just as it did on Steem.
Stake Holder Economics have Pros and Cons. Alpha is who can ally himself in smart ways, that's how it's done between Chimps in the jungle and also on DPoS Blockchains by humans.
Don’t expect anything else, srsl don’t.
You might be surprised to know that Hive tokens are a form of speech. Speech censored could include our tokens, if we're not quite robust about protecting our speech.
I consider my tokens the least important form of speech, perhaps because I pay far more attention to my words than I do my tokens.
But here, or elsewhere, I'll not be ruled by force. Pandering to power is not sovereignty, and I will expect better, because if we don't do better than that Hive will never have the ability to distribute the means of production it was meant to, and something else that can will replace it, because the market will act to secure independent means of wealth whenever possible, and the technology to make it possible exists.
If Hive has tricked us into thinking we could get it here, and we can't, Hive is doomed to failure, and something else is going to eat the market it could have had.
That's not wrong, but #HIVE is also one of the best ecosystems to start this 'new' rather layer2 system.
Whenever you think this is the ONE - you've basically already lost the plot. It's amazing to me how people can watch "The Matrix" and don't see the ultimate lesson behind it. Every system will eat itself from inside, it's just a matter of time. We need to embrace change and invest in what will disrupt us eventually.
That's why I'm here. I want Hive to succeed, and that's why I advocate for the underlying value that creates value in our tokens. That value is our speech. Speech isn't only blogs, and plenty of other means of speaking have arisen on Hive, but it is the original mechanism, and remains particularly well suited to nuance and delivering robust and substantive information.
There's nothing wrong with adding value, but change can eliminate value too. That would be tragic IMHO.
Tragic indeed
So yes I think you are right, but your fast with your conclusion may be too fast.
I agree and I do when I notice them. Usually by only a portion because I don't think I should be the only one making these adjustments. Sometimes others do too, just not that often.
It is the nature of the system that downvotes aren't incentivized in any way, so for the most part nobody is going to put a lot of time into it. If we happen to see stuff, we might downvote it, otherwise not.
Except that they shift those rewards that are being removed right up to the top-earning posts, correct?
Or is that just an untrue thing that lots of people on here say? I haven't seen a technical breakdown of that, and can't read the code myself - but I've seen many folks explain it this way, and never seen anyone correcting them.
No, they don't. They reduce the eventual payout of the one post which results in more remaining in the pool. That larger pool then results in marginally higher payouts of other posts.
Ah. Thank you for clarifying that.
To dive deeper then...
If we say (just for me to understand) that the top 100 posts have a 80% of the rewards that have been voted out at that time, those 100 posts would also get 80% of the rewards removed from the down-voted post?
Feel free to shoot me a link or tell me to go find it if this is already laid out very clearly somewhere.
It doesn't change the distribution of other rewards, it mostly just increases all of them by a certain percentage. So if the top 100 got 80% before, the top 100 would get 80% after. Both top 100 and outside the top 100 would increase by X% (X% is very small for any single downvote of course, let's say 0.01% hypothetically).
You could have just said yes.
The correct answer is more subtle. If you're downvoting a post in the top 100 (almost always what I downvote since I don't spend a lot of time looking for downvote candidates), you are actually reducing the share of reward going to the top 100.
What is the argument against burning flagged rewards thereby benefiting all stakeholders equally rather than the current distribution giving them to the highest value posts in proportion to the rshares voted to them?
If there are 3 posts with 100, 50, and 10 htu respectively and 1000htu flagged to split among them doesn't the 100htu post get double what the 50htu and 10x what the 10htu post get?
If true, better to burn the rewards, imo.
I don't think it's that bad but burning and shifting away from one payout are two different things and voters ought to be able to do both. If voters think more should be burned overall (that is, that the overall collection of posts is not deserving of payouts, as opposed to particular ones), they can vote for burn.funder posts the way we can vote for hbd.funder (burnpost used to do this). In your example, if you think the 100 is getting too much, either before or after the 1000 is downvoted, then go ahead and downvote that one too!
That said, I don't think burning is terrible.
That's true, and less emotionally triggering, voting burn.funder would serve the same ends.
I propose the change to the curation math should be made in pursuit of a more horizontal distribution of the rewards, the top posts are getting enough, imo.
My reading of arcange's posts says that the largest accounts are maintaining their share of the inflation as a percentage of the whole, thereby not reducing the centralization caused by early adoption and brownnosing of the ninjaminers by milquetoast authors.
I think burning flagged rewards presents a better proposal for the newbs, too.
Rather than allow characterizing the flaggots as enriching themselves, it ends any thoughts in that line and increases the scarcity of all coins, equally.
Maybe it gets folks to flag more stuff by demonstrating the benefits to all, rather than the few at the top.
The crab bucket is failing the trending page, and the distribution, imo.
At some point the rubicon is crossed, future inflation won't be enough to unseat the oligarchy created by the designed control features that favor the top earners, has that point been reached, already?
Like I said, I don't hate it but I prefer the way it works now. When we downvote overpaid stuff in the top 100 (which is nearly if not 100% of what I downvote, and I suspect a large portion of total downotes), it is increasing the rewards all the way down the line, even comments.
@smooth, you’ve recently downvoted a post of mine for a total of $80. I am full-time on Hive and spend so much time curating and commenting that I often find little time to post.
As Hive is my life, I’d appreciate it if you at least take the time to comment and provide a reason why when downvoting, otherwise it feels like a personal attack, and more so I’d just lazy.
If you care about Hive so much, take some time to engage with the posts you upvote and downvote, otherwise you see like an out of touch elite too good to interact with this beneath you.
I am downvoting this comment because you have downvoted my content without reason or even taking time to engage. Take some time and please understand that people in poverty live a different life than you.
Why does it matter if a post is one of the top 100, or in position 101?
That's an arbitrary number, but if you're concerned with rewards being distributed more broadly, I'm pretty sure downvotes are helpful not harmful in practice. The higher payouts get downvoted more. The rewards flow to the other payouts, including the smaller ones.
I wondered if I had missed something regarding the top 100 posts.
While generally what you are saying regarding posts and payouts is true, the devil's in the details, as always, and there are good reasons and bad ones to vote rewards to and from posts and authors.
I reckon any reasons stemming from differences of opinion, rather than substantial effort and contribution to societal improvement, and that generally and not only regarding Hive itself, are the bad ones. We only support free speech if we support the speech of folks we disagree with, as even the most repressive censor supports the speech of folks they agree with.
I am confident you grasp that fact, and I have always recommended that our votes promote free speech long before financial matters are considered at all. Without the former the latter has no value whatsoever. It is apparent on Hive that our money is a form of speech.
This is becoming more and more apparent by the day, and the value of free speech rises ever higher as censorship reduces it's availability in the market. Hive could profit more from that market than almost any other platform that exists, but we will vote that profit onto the platform, or repel it with censorship.
We will likely have to agree to disagree on the relationship between inflation rewards and free speech.
I think free speech can thrive independent of inflation rewards, and these rewards can (and in my view, should) be allocated in a manner largely independently of free speech.
The fact that you can post on the platform at all, and that communities and apps can be built to cultivate visibility and utility on the platform independent of inflation rewards, including with different methods for monetization or no monetization, is sufficient for free speech to thrive.
Of course, it is up to stakeholders to decide. If people want to buy in and financially reward 'free speech content' for it's own sake without exercising further discretion on content and value, that is as legitimate as any other vote. If you don't agree with my views, then vote differently.
They did. That's why this platform exists at all. The blogging aspect wasn't tacked on. It was the mechanism that generated value underlying the token. Speech is the basis for Hive's very existence, and your comment indicates your disregard for that fundamental aspect of Hive.
We do disagree on that.
Yes that's fine. People can vote to direct rewards a certain way, and others can vote a different way. The votes are added up and so it goes.
Speech, and even free speech, as compared to REWARDING specific content with stake inflation rewards are not the same thing. There are other ways to monetize content, including all the ways that exist on every other site on the internet. Those are available on Hive too, with fewer obstacles in terms of demonetization and censorship.
Stake inflation rewarding is not and should not be indiscriminate. It is a consensus process. Where stakeholders agree, rewards are paid, where stakeholders disagree, rewards are not paid, or are paid in less amounts. If we disagree on that, so be it. Hive on.
The Reward Pool is a somewhat static piece which gets distributed across all votes of a period of time. You can't expand or reduce it by voting habits.
Correct, by the voting habits (specifically of whales) do decide where those rewards get allocated.
For example, if they downvote a $300 post to $0 - that $300 is added back into the rewards pool, where it will mostly be awarded to the top posts at the time.
All Rewards are mostly distributed to the top post at any given time, independent from downvoting habits.
I disagree with most voting habits on-chain too, but that's a totally different story for a small fish like me. I don't even get how you ended up as a target.
Very true - and the folks downvoting have admitted many times that they agree trending is mostly over-rewarded crap.
They just claim they don't have the voting power to do anything about it - while simultaneously zero-ing out posts that were near the top of trending.
Yep, very risky for a small fish (or anyone really) to call out this activity - because it will get you downvoted (often to negative reputation), and has guaranteed no further rewards for many a user.
Because I dared to speak out against their targeting of others, because I do have a high rep and many supporters (less risk), and I honestly don't care if they try to cancel me as well.
Well, they could be honest and just outright state that the downvotes are 'mostly peaceful' subjective disagreements. That would indeed cut some corners.
I wonder where Blocktrades is on this topic at the moment.
Sounds fair and it's nice to see I'm not the only one bothered by this.
This kind of behavior earns my respect and won't likely scare many people off chain. That's wielding power responsibly. If it weren't for one or two people getting off on their ability to singlehandedly destroy a post (often for arbitrary reasons), I don't think downvotes would be a big problem. As it is though, one or two bullies have the potential to scare a lot of users away, and more users means more projects will want to build on Hive and more investment with it.
We have downvotes as a check on abusive upvotes, wouldn't it make sense to have some kind of check on abusive downvotes?
Also, It sounds like you don't like having rewards for content on the first layer. Is that a popular opinion among the devs and other large stakeholders you talk to? If so then why wasn't it removed earlier to avoid confusion?
They're not equivalent. Upvotes earn rewards and generate payouts, downvotes don't. The sort of abuses are different and while downvote abuse may be annoying to an individual, it isn't systemic. The 25% limit on downvotes (essentially 2.5 full power downvotes per day) means that there are always many payouts escaping downvotes (or at least not being downvoted very much), no matter how much havoc someone wants to cause.
It is somewhat mixed but very few actually think it is working well, or has ever worked well going on six years.
In part because it is a significant task and there have been other priorities, including building out software infrastructure that would make second layer solutions more powerful and accessible. There isn't much support for removing it without better support for alternatives.
I’ll reply to 2 comments here.
There is your answer to the question “no one complains about upvotes so why do they complain about downvotes?”. A large payout on a post only effects everyone else’s payout by a tiny bit and so we’d rather let it slide, it’s not worth antagonizing people, which is what it does (especially when we risk antagonizing people who could destroy our potential to earn stake).
Meanwhile, one dude deciding that my friend’s posts deserve to have 80-100% of his upvotes countered because he’s from Africa and doesn’t need that much to live…that feels a lot different, like an attack on his ability to build a stake in the network because he isn’t one of the cool kids, or because stakeholders don’t want to let anyone besides their friends have any say here. It feels in contrast to the idea of decentralization.
If the little guys should worry about the little guys, why would the big guys be ok with one big guy going around bullying a bunch of little guys like that? I know it’s not a wide scale problem (yet) but it sends a message to all of us when it goes left unchecked. It also causes us to mistrust downvotes as a useful mechanism (which I can see that it is only because I’ve been here 5 years). If I were a larger stakeholder (I believe I’m around #250, still peanuts), I’d treat anyone bullying smaller users as a threat to my investment, as it scares people away from the chain.
Aside from spam and absolute garbage, if I were to downvote anything, it’d be on posts that earn $1000 when the rest of trending is at $300. Most of those people add a lot of value but are already receiving a large part of the reward pool from their witnesses, from proposals, from second layer tokens and from strategic curation. It also consolidates power and hinders wide distribution of the token. You can see why I don’t do that though, I imagine, judging from your other comment.
Why is that?
For 90% of the people here the rewards for content make this place exciting. I imagine it has the potential to attract much more development in the coming months too. I’m not just here for my own ability to earn, I’m here to see how incentivized content creation allows people to do what they are excited and passionate about. I understand the emphasis on free speech and governance models, but the monetized social aspect is so powerful and we do it better than anything else out there now. The improvement of trending and the reward pool distribution in general is astounding. I see the rewards as a way to gather excitement and resources to make it easier to build whatever else you guys want to build.
I wish the old stakeholders could see how life changing this place has been for so many of us and how much of that has to the rewards, then lean into that. The incentivization keeps us constantly working to improve ourselves and find ways to benefit our communities. It may seem boring or cheesey to people who don’t engage in it, like we are all just farming without much care for anything else but most of us love this place, we just want to know that it’s as fair as it can be.
I’ve learned how markets work thanks to hive. I’ve gained access to people in very different life situations to understand them and build communities with them. The incentives made it possible. I will likely travel to Nigeria and Venezuela only thanks to the friendships I’ve made at Hive.
Sure it could work on a second layer too, but there would have to be a project that can handle that better than we have up until now. I’m glad you say there would have to be better support for alternatives.
But why do you think it hasn’t worked well? Don’t you think it’s come a long way and could continue to improve with new faces and a few tweaks?
I appreciate your response. I’ve invested countless hours into Hive so it’s good to know the largest stakeholders can bother discussing things with the rest of us. That’s the kind of thing that keeps me here.
Yes I understand that people who aren't significant stakeholders and are only on the receiving end of rewards wouldn't care about excessive rewards, as long as they still get some. However those of us on the paying end of rewards do care, and no amount of complaining about downvotes from the people being downvoted is going to make us stop caring.
No, I don't think a few tweaks is going to do the trick. We've tried that at least 3-5 times with little overall benefit. It needs a more substantial revamp, but meanwhile it benefits from the limited restraint of rampant overrewarding that comes from downvotes.
Trust me, if I could become one of the largest stakeholders I would so I’m not looking to do anything that scares away good investment. Interested in understanding big investors mindset more so I can support proposals that make everyone happy.
I may have only invested a few thousand USD but I did it right at the fork during a high risk time when I was barely able to afford rent.
It sounds like you see the inflation being distributed far and wide as not ideal, and I’m having a hard time understanding that.
What is it that you or other large stakeholders want hive to do or to be? Do you not see much value in the social aspect and in spreading the reward pool to a wider variety of users so that we can call ourselves truly decentralized? Isn't being truly decentralized something we want people to invest in?
I’m trying to get into your head and reach as close to consensus as possible so we can all do the most to increase the value of your investment and my investment too. My investment may seem small to you but it matters to me, so I’m not looking to squander it.
What do you feel is the biggest value proposition of Hive?
This is not true at all. In fact when I downvote it is usually the highest rewards content and the highest reward earners. By reducing these concentrated rewards, the effect is to distribute reward more widely, not less.
In my view the greatest value is broad participation as well as app building, the reliability and efficiency of the blockchain, reasonable distribution of the token and decent exchange support/liquidity. I'm not seeing that much of the value is the original/core social app at all. It's there, it works, it has helped build a community of users (albeit fairly small), but it's cost-benefit payoff isn't great compared to second layer apps such as games, defi, alternate community models, potential future user growth from all of the above, etc.
Well, it seems like we agree on everything except for the cost-benefit of the community/social aspect. I see the community as what could attract much more development as well as a powerful tool for creating network effects. How much of the Splinterlands team are/were bloggers/curators that met through the social aspect. Do you see where I’m getting at?
The community provides a passionate workforce for development and also helps hive apps stand out when they are done properly.
So here’s this community that’s been constantly hit over the head with some serious bullshit, then large stakeholders think we aren’t valuable? Man, I get where you are coming from but think of what this community has been through …issues with the founders, the Sun drama and fork, a long bear market…not to mention a few years where scams made trending more than real content. This created a shitty situation for Social to really shine and attract new any investment.
Most investors (large and small) blame the majority of users leaving on the bear market, just dismissing them as weak hands, but I personally know upwards of 30 people who were working on projects and onboarding that left because the reward algorithms and whale drama (bernie, haejin, bidbots etc.) was indicative of a twisted pyramid scheme. I seriously doubt any of them would feel that way today.
Please give some credit to the content creators and the people who are just enjoying themselves and trying to build a stake. We keep this place lively and attractive. It will take some time under decent curation but we are going to be attracting a shit ton of projects that want to build on and invest in Hive.
I think I am starting to see where you are coming from, and I hope you can do the same for me. Also I appreciate your responsible behavior as a large stakeholder. You also make this place worth investing in. Just hope you won’t empower (or look the other way for) any who have less integrity and reason than yourself.
Look at the numbers. We're spending about $15 million per year on content rewards with a user base of about 15000, that hasn't grown significantly in years. That's $1000 per year per user. I can't see where that cost benefit comes from, it is wildly out of line with the customer value of any social platform or internet platform or even most profit-generating businesses (possibly all). Yes, there is also some value in terms of distributing stake and increasing network effect potentially, but it isn't infinite and even that doesn't work if the user base and stakeholder base doesn't grow or barely grows.
In no way is any of this the "fault" of content creators or users. They're mostly sincere and doing their best to create good contend and engagement. We just don't have a platform and business model that has the pieces put together to work in a sustainable way.
Well said, those numbers look ugly. I can understand now where you are coming from. What if it were x10-20 the users though? Would you still feel that way?
Also did you calculate that using the current price of hive? Or accounting for the fluctuation of price?
What if we decide that hive is overvalued based on speculation? I’m not saying it doesn’t have valuable development, but I feel $1.50 (or even $0.80) is a little unwarranted considering a 15k user base (though it feels more warranted when I see how well splinterlands is doing).
Once again, I gotta insist that the user base has been severely hindered in its ability to create a network and attract projects due to all that’s happened. I wouldn’t look at it as the result of 5 years but the results of one year since we got a fresh start. I’d also consider how splinterlands, 3speak and Leo are mostly homegrown. Their teams are made of content creators and people who started as content creators.
I wonder if Splinterlands would have ever happened without the social monetization.
The social is where we can find our niches and form communities that can eventually transform into projects that draw more investment. It’s taking a long time to grow into that but it will start to show soon!
I hope in another year you will see the content creators as an important asset that generates more value than they extract. I’ll do my best to encourage behavior that can drive home that point.
It was the current price, more or less (was a rough estimate, not a precise calculation). But even at lower prices, these numbers are still terrible.
If we had 10-15x the users, it still wouldn't be great, but it would be better. More important would be whether that 10-15x was achieved via a sustainable growth trend pointing toward even more users, and that would probably be fine even with the current numbers. But that's not the case, growth has never been achieved, and that is the bigger problem. High cost without achieving growth.
Basically no growth in that year apart from what is easily attributable to price rise (and will go away if the price goes down). Even that is pretty small (went from about 10k to about 15k).
BTW, that 15k "active accounts" includes bots (spam bots, vote bots, etc.) and also accounts that just vote or maybe occasionally comment, but don't post content and don't earn anything. (It doesn't include users of non-social apps or those who just trade on exchanges and transfer funds.) So the actual cost per human posting user is even significantly higher.
Well some do, I already agree on that point. But unfortunatley many don't, and many engage in opportunistic behavior that makes matters worse, such as posting complaints and other "content" that isn't ever going to attract anyone, and then getting upset when it gets downvoted after being autovoted or stupidly voted (large "curation" accounts that are really voting close to random to earn curation rewards).
If I see creators who producing content that attracts a growing audience at cost that is reasonable for the scale of what is going on (not hundreds of dollars for posting a few photos day after day, etc.), I'll rarely if ever downvote that, and when I do downvote excessive rewards, it helps give some oxygen to the rest by reducing, even if only a little, the rampant drain that continues to make it hard for the actual creatives and community builders to get anywhere.
lol I imagine a precise calculation would take some time, I don't expect you to do that just for this thread.
It's really hard to reach that critical mass where things start growing on their own, content creators know that better than anyone. It doesn't help that a huge chunk of the community was scared away from the Proof of Brain model right after it began to take off with steemit. I've been keeping a close eye on penguinpablo's posts, specifically active users (with bots and all that in mind) and I'm also very disappointed.
I hate to say it (because I love the energy), but I feel that a lot of the effort at twitter has been completely wasted, if not counterproductive. People have put a ton of effort into that with little bother to understand the Twitter algorithms. I suspect that the only time it's been useful is when we target specific people and reply to other tweets. The #hive tag may not have done much but put Hive users in a bubble at twitter where no one else sees our tweets.
I do think the momentum will start to build now that people are talking about social blockchains and that the best second layer apps have a positive feedback loop with the larger Hive community. I really want to prove you wrong with regards to this just being a matter of time and circumstance and perhaps 3speak and another project or two may help me make that point in coming months.
Your position is totally reasonable though and I appreciate you answering all my questions, just voted for your witness. I hope we have people running the chain who are willing to engage like this when they have time and who at least TRY to appreciate the little guy's angle. I also hope we can look for more ways to align the interests of investors and content creators, and that I can personally find more ways as a content creator that ease the mind of any decent large investors.
Nothing to prove wrong really. I'm all in favor of second layer apps and IMO they have a far better chance to find the magic formula for growth than continuing to beat the dead horse of the inherently stagnant and inefficient layer one app.
I think we are in the wrong business, making posts about food recipes, travel posts, and photo challenge posts seems to be the way to go. If we were truly about getting rewards all of us would be doing what gets upvoted on trending instead of writing political posts.
That's a very fair point. 😁
Ahem,... eerm..... I think you forgot to include "makeup posts" in that sentence!
Yeah! definitely we serious wizards are indeed in the wrong business to be seriously rewarded.
It is quite clear that the maggots feeding on the corpse of free speech are violently opposed to sharing the sustenance with anyone else. Censorship has eaten forthright speech across the web, and continues to get worse, as now the UN undertakes to block DNS resolution of private sites that do not parrot the oligarchs' propaganda.
The blatant censorship will continue, and I am confident that Hive will be no different than other communities, nations, and sites controlled by oligarchs dedicated only to their own aggrandizement, until that unfortunate day when such minor powers find they are just chattel, their supposed fortunes are null and void, and they are just as subject to the CBDC, social credit algorithms, and vaxpass as those they have always considered their prey.
I would rejoice at their comeuppance, but it will come long after we mere plebs have been silenced across the world, even though Hive may be one of the last bastions of free speech, and that only if you do not care a fig for money, as I do not. Neither tokens, nor fiat, inspire me to work, but the goodwill of my community, the benefit of my neighbors, and the truth of my convictions alone stir my efforts, which I dedicate to my good people and their survival in the ongoing unrestricted war killing people today across the world.
In the full scheme of things Hive is a minor loss, a tiny voice crying out in a censored wilderness, but it had the potential to be more, and my grief at it's final passing will be profound.
I urge you to spend your fiat and tokens on good people while you may, that the goodwill of your neighbors and community might sustain you when the hot war begins. It is goodwil that alone will be useful currency soon, and crypto, fiat, and even shiny rocks will be censored, withheld, or prevented from being of use by oligarchs that must force CBDC alone to be transactable in the world they seek to create in which we are all enslaved to algorithms through the vaxpass.
Seize means of production that can enable you to provide what is essential to you and your community in that coming pogrom. Grow food, produce power, and manufacture goods and services that lacking will be used as weapons to starve you and yours into submission. Have faith in the life we are all part of, that we will prevail over those that seek to destroy life itself and subjugate it to machines and a simulacrum of undeath.
It's much worse than we can imagine. Our enemies are evil itself.
When we prevail, the paradise that follows will prove every sacrifice will have been worth every tear, all the sweat, and every drop of blood our wounds have shed.
Thanks!
Well said my friend.
That's all nice said and stuff but you realize that if you are what you say in this comment you're the absolute opposite of OP, he's the quickest to turn against the platform in the face of a few downvotes I've ever witnessed. I honestly wonder how gullible some of you are, not you directly but many of you. Or you just don't care cause you're in the same circle of being fed the same votes from OP through various accounts. Oh the freedom Hive gives people, for better or worse.
Why support this medium at all if your posts can just be downvoted to nothingness? I thought this place was decentralized from authority and there was no censorship but it doesn't appear that way.
Is there no honest place to communicate anymore? How will our species ever find our way if we can't talk to each other?
This is identical to gov overreach telling others what's valuable and what's not. Damn, so disappointed.
It's not censorship. Post all you want. You're just not entitled to get paid for it if stakeholders vote not to pay you.
Sounds like you're describing a slave / master relationship ... like it's okay or something.
Hardly. It's rewards you may get or may not get. There's no coercion involved whatsoever.
It's tyranny whatever you want to call it. This platform should change its profile in order to be completely honest.
And be sure to include the fact that what your content is worth will be decided by a centralized authority, not by the market,
Why belong to anything that puts you at the mercy of some insane authority? @kennyskitchen , @tlavagabond and god knows who else has added no value as decided by some tyrannical authority is ludicrous. Blunt truth.
Sure, you can say whatever you want but you won't get paid if it doesn't meet with the central authorities approval.
Need any help with that new profile? I could post it on youtube for you. Just trying to help.
I have an idea. Just admit "you" were wrong and change things around in the interest of good will and freedom. Naw, tyrants never have good will.
The more "you" try to sell it, the more irritated it makes me.
And to be fair here as well, markets determine value through both selling and buying, which are the equivalent of up or downvotes here. To be a fair market both the +/- need to exist.
Do they need to exist as is? No, I'm sure there's a better way and these posts, since they address this specific issue should hopefully motivate some ideas. Those ideas can then become blogs, helping to keep the topic front and center and even gain popularity leading to change.
to be fair? Fair is not in this equation. It's just another "market" controlled by a few dishonest individuals.. you know, that thing we were trying to escape in coming here.
Life in general isn't fair.
Much of the unfairness in life is directly generated by humans and that is the case here. Few things really piss me off but at the top of the list is cruelty / unkindness. That always trips my trigger like nothing else can.
Humans that can actually justify in their own twisted minds being unkind are what we should be trying to evolve from. We, humans, can make things better, more fair, if you will, for everyone.
AND .. we can do that today, in a heartbeat, with a change of heart, an enlightened soul, letting kindness and love lead. I truly hope those guilty parties will take the time to consider how they can do the right thing and change the course because as it stands right now, they risk destroying this platform.
They need to apologize and set things right with critical thinking and good will. Are they "big" enough to do that. Do they have a conscience sufficiently developed that will allow them to just .. tell the truth. Too much to ask?
hope not but time will tell
I myself don't feel we need to be more kind. On the contrary, we need to thicken our skins. Nature is inherently unfair, so it's not just humans who create inequity.
The strongest survive and lightening does strike twice. If things only work in the affirmative, then balance will be lost and things will only become more unfair. As a matter of fact, Hive will simply be a Socialist paradise(?) with a Chinese style social credit score.
I'll say it again as well, I don't think Hive works as it should nor can it reach the goal of decentralization as is. Kenny and a few others dealing with this issue could have presented the issue in a more constructive way. Addressing a problem and trying to start a conversation does not include the threat of powering down, voicing the intent to leave nor shitting on the place that has treated him well for years.
See, it has only become an issue once the earnings weren't there? No, it's been an issue since day one, but no one addresses it until they become a victim. This in my eyes is a form of hypocrisy.
That being said, I've been here since 2016, yet look at my rep and wallet. I'm not looking for a digital representation of the current systems. I've worked hard to be able to live outside the system irl.
For this reason I haven't put a lot of time into Hive. I've been searching this whole time for something better and I've voiced my issue with the oligarchy it creates since 2018. It(a more decentralized platform) simply doesn't exist. Hive is the most decentralized environment out there. So, the most efficient way to build a better system is to either develop your own fork or try to change the current system for the better.
That's what we should be trying to do, help Hive evolve towards decentralization, rather than just throwing it on the ground and stomping on it when it pisses us off.
"I myself don't feel we need to be more kind."
full stop... I'll try to read the rest of your post later after I get over my shock. Do you really believe that? We're at opposite ends of that rainbow.
... think I'll watch a couple episodes of "Ancient Aliens" and smoke a doob
are you still trying to defend tyranny??? that's never going to fly in my world
just tell me the justification for destroying someone's work, specifically .. I can't imagine an explanation that doesn't sound messed up.. surprise me.
later
It's not destroyed = fact?
If you read the rest you'd see there's multiple points and even agreement with you. If you refuse to read dissent cuz your 180° from it, then anything you produce is in question.
Note: I've had an account decimated unfairly. It is what it is... take your lumps and move on.
Also, from your first comment til your last that I've read, I haven't seen much 'kindness' in any of them.
You're defending tyranny and that's annoying. I apologize for coming across that way but it irritates me to hear tyranny defended over and over. To the best of my ability, I'm only saying blunt truth but I know that can also sound harsh. Not meant that way.
Give me something logical to justify stealing someone's money as it specifically applies in this case or we just shouldn't talk anymore because I will view it as defending tyranny.
I know we agree on some things but I can't accept authoritarian control, nor any words to justify it as it's goes 100% against my grain, my being. That's just me, understood. I have a right to my opinion as well as the next guy.
I wish you all good things, nothing but.
So, be specific or go in peace, otherwise it's all dust in the wind.
We are. Scrolling up through the comments again I noted several people reacting in shock at how centralization of the stake works. Lots of folks are trying to wrap their head around how it works, and some folks with vested interests that well understand how it works are trying to obfuscate it, to keep playing the fish on the line.
I've made the best pitch I know how, but when folks are trying to obfuscate and milk rather than act in good faith, no matter how well you make your pitch it won't produce beneficial results.
Some folks just don't have good faith. When those folks also have power, and oddly common circumstance, Hive doesn't get increasingly decentralized, things don't get better, and censorship increases instead of decreases.
Suppression of speech isn't eradication of it, yet. So, given the options Hive remains less censored than Twatter or the rest of 'em. It's just useful to not care about money in order to use it if the censors don't want you to.
So, when one stakeholder pays for a post with an upvote (they way y'all have been describing this - stakeholders PAYING for the content rewards), and another stakeholder comes along and deletes those rewards (for author & curator), how are they not stealing funds - from the stakeholder at least, if not the author?
Because the first stakeholder does not "pay" a post, they vote for rewards. The votes (both for and against rewards) are added up AT THE END, and then rewards, if any, are paid.
If someone wants to "pay" a post, we have a transfer function, and I think some UIs have a tip function too. That's paying. Voting is voting.
Ah. I just wanted to clarify this again because I've seen the phrase "stakeholders pay for rewards" thrown around multiple times.
They (we) pay for rewards collectively, not individually. We vote individually.
They're Gaslighting...
Where did Their "STAKE" come from in the first place?
Flags are censorship, and that is why they exist per the White Paper. You and others simply refuse to use the accepted definition of censorship, as if that actually matters.
It doesn't, because we live in reality, and flagging content suppresses it, which is why you do it. You do so predatorily, profiting from deprecating Hive and it's primary value of free speech.
Economic stress is a substantial source of psychological stress, and psychological stress is the leading indicator of life expectancy. It is false to claim that manipulating Hive's economy is not coercive.
https://odysee.com/@lancewdetrick:b/IA---Denis-Rancourt-on-there-being-no-evidence-of-a-pandemic---Jerm-Warfare:2
Your lack of philanthropy will be your undoing. It is the very wealth you have accumulated that deprives you of your ability to adapt and sustain the civil society on which you are utterly dependent, and current geopolitical conditions strongly indicate that the time that inability will become of existential import is either presently, or soon.
How will you feel when your tokens evaporate before your eyes, and you realize that if you had strengthened the community instead you'd have goodwill to depend on instead of your worthless stacks of tokens?
I know how desperation feels, because I experienced it when Citi stole my property. Your solvency depends on the UN continuing to allow Hive and exchanges to be resolved by DNS, and the UN has begun taking sites down it does not want online.
I suspect this is goodbye, because I don't think Hive and cryptocurrency exchanges will long survive the introduction of CBDCs, and that has already begun.
Good bye @smooth.
"Flags" don't exist in the white paper. Elewhere this thread I linked to an archive of the early steemit web site that didn't have "flags", it had upvote and downvote. Go look.
We all presumably do what we think is best for our investment, even if we happen not to agree on what that happens to be. For sure I'm not guaranteed to be taking the right approach, even though I think I am and you don't. And even so, many blockchains have failed and will fail, so I know there is a significant chance my stake in Hive declines in value or becomes worthless. And further you are not wrong that decentralized blockchains may collapse altogether (in value even if not operationally). Not what I would like to see of course, but it goes with the territory.
Pedantry regarding voting is without merit.
Free speech was the specific use case Hive was intended to reward financially, and departing from that has continually degraded the platform and community ever since. Proposing that purpose now be abandoned altogether is tantamount to euthanizing an athlete after amputating their legs because they can't run the mile competitively anymore.
Never more than now has free speech been more valuable, or necessary to our very lives and humanity, and consideration of value beyond mere financial considerations has never been more potential of immense profit to them that are capable of it.
Your wallet will have no value to you, regardless of the financial worth of the tokens in it, if censorship silences forthright speech and malicious lies are all society is availed during a global crisis of governance specifically bent on duplicity and covert genocide. You can't take it with you into a mass grave.
You, and all on Hive and alive, deserve better than such a fate, and it is now, and has always been, my position that free speech is essential to our survival, while mere money is but a convenience while we yet live.
I urge you to act to protect Hive's original remit and profit not only yourself thereby, but the community that will thereafter be able to increase and multiply that goodwill and fortune into treasure beyond the dreams of Midas.
Troubles are upon us, and to prevail will take extraordinary acts by ordinary people, but the decentralization and independent means that will follow our victory over the totalitarian tyranny oligarchs seek to implement over us all will usher in a golden age unimaginable to us now.
Seek the greater reward for your investment.
And it does, but not everything gets rewards.
No one said everything should. What a crappy straw man.
The issue you're dancing around is despite quality work, massive engagement, and some of the most diligent promotion of the platform that has ever been undertaken, @kennyskitchen is getting flagged because of differences of opinion.
You will deny it's censorship to suppress speech, but rational people will accept the longstanding ubiquitously accepted official definition of censorship anyway.
Dozens of quality creators marketing Hive to the wider world have been driven from the platform by this mechanism that I can personally recall, and no fewer than thousands just weren't willing to even start after seeing this kinda shit.
Free speech is far more valuable than whatever rewards you milk by censoring creators you disagree with politically. Censorship is bad for business, and worse for society. Even though you may not agree with it now, you might later. A lot of folks are having epiphanies of late, now that Jacinda Ardern has stated she will never stop jabbing her subjects, ever, Israel just announced 7 more boosters are going to be mandated, and even the enemedia are admitting the jabs are causing massive numbers of heart attacks and cardiovascular injuries.
The 'conspiracy theories' you don't censor just might turn out to be timely warnings that save your life soon. I give it two more weeks (/s).
You're not benefiting the platform, the community, or promoting quality content, despite your continued misdirection. Folks know that, even if they're unable to state it succinctly.
You're personally profiting financially from censorship, devaluing Hive by doing so, and claiming otherwise. It's disingenuous, counterproductive, and a huge waste of time, so you must really need the water muddy to keep rollin' deep.
Honestly, your life is far more valuable than your wallet. When you quit censoring people like @kennyskitchen, a life you save might be your own. You are ill advised to profit by censoring him when he's providing you that valuable service of cutting through bullshit being promulgated by lying genocidal war criminals to enable you and everyone else to defend themselves from existential harm.
You should be upvoting him instead.
Differences of opinion over what should be rewarded, yes. That's exactly what downvotes are for.
Since our speech here on Hive is the source of rewards, and everyone needs must express an opinion to speak, what you are claiming is that censoring opinions you do not agree with is what flags are for, and that is utterly contrary to any conception of rational debate, discussion, or discovery, and free speech itself.
Dial it back, or simply slap an armband on and demand plebs march in goosestep to your personal notions of what is acceptable to believe.
It is not the opinion regarding an issue that determines one's right to speak it, but how that opinion is expressed. Is it well researched? Is it well written? Is it spammed in every blog in comments? Is it used to trick people into parting with their stake? A preference for the color red is not an acceptable reason to flag, while expressing that opinion in various ways can be.
I may choose to communicate my preference for the color red by using a knife to turn people red with their own blood, and that is not a mode of expression any just legal theory would say I have a right to undertake, regardless of my opinion of the color. There are reasonable limits on our right to expression, and flagging well researched and written posts to zero exceeds those reasonable limits, regardless of the opinions involved.
In fact, so censoring certain speech might as well be stabbing people to death, because security and safety signals are absolutely dependent on free speech to promulgate. Free speech is of existential import. People die of the lack of it far more than of the lack of money, IMHO.
The worse censorship grows elsewhere, the less Hive should be censored, and the more valuable censorship resistance becomes.
Excuse me? Except for posts involving downvote drama and other insider nonsense that has no or negative marketing value (but still perfectly legitimate to debate, just don't expect to be paid for it), I only ever downvote moderately, such that there is still a very significant reward. If you think that getting a payout of, for example, $100 instead of $120 for something that in most cases couldn't earn a penny anywhere else is censorship, I don't know what to tell you. I can't speak for others' downvoting, take it up with them.
The definition of censorship != "deleted", it actually = suppression.
https://www.aclu.org/other/what-censorship
I'm not sure how after being here all these years you didn't know that.
Rewards are not imposing beliefs. They're a reward. You're entitled to submit a candidate to get rewards, and may get some, but you aren't entitled to them, and not getting them or getting less isn't "imposing" nor "censorship".
If you don't agree with the terminology, fine, but you're still not going to be entitled to an "uncensored" flow of whatever rewards you want.
The concept of a "reward" needs to be reexamined. Rewards aren't given and then taken away in real life that I've heard of, so the naming nomenclature for what is called "reward" is the wrong word to begin with.
An upvote isn't a reward, it's someone assigning someone else system resources(though why that is done at all still doesn't make sense either). Taking away that assignment of resources via downvoting is taking away someone's potential for earning that system resource. Whether or not it is built into the protocol isn't relevant.
The definition of censorship I provided above.
The definition of Curation is to put on display, to discern and create a list/public work that is on display, or to prominently put on display for others to see. Downvoting removes that to a certain %, so it is the opposite of curating and that means downvoting is suppressing something(censorship).
I'm disagreeing with the incorrect use of terminology that is being used across Hive, I am using historical definitions. Hive has censorship built into the protocol and it's called downvoting, to the degree that happens depends on if a post is lessened somewhat, a lot, a little, or zeroed out. For some reason people equate censorship = deleted, and that's just simply not the case.
Nor here either. Until payout, you haven't received the rewards. You can't spend them or transfer them or do anything else with them because you haven't received them yet.
Part of the issue seems to be that the UI displays an ESTIMATE of what you might receive, which is subject to change for various reasons (upvotes, downvotes, exchange rate, size of the reward pool, and possibly others I'm forgetting). But it is just an estimate. Upvotes don't "give" and downvotes don't "take away". The payment is made at the end, after all the votes are in.
Here's the defintion I get from google:
"the action or process of selecting, organizing, and looking after the items in a collection or exhibition"
That's what we're doing with voting. Selecting and organizing the items that will get payouts (looking after isn't applicable). We vote for seven days, during which stakeholders get to collaborate via the voting process to select and organize the pending payouts. Estimated payouts move up and down, and, at the end, the votes are added up, and only THEN is the payout, if any, made.
Sure, but i've never heard of such a thing in real life where a guy who has 1,000 USD in his wallet curates a selection of items/books and puts them on public display somewhere where there's lots of people, and a millionaire walks by and cancels the display. Then the millionaire says "have more money in your wallet if you want to have your display here".
That entire interaction and system is nonsensical.
This is real life. Everything is real life unless you're imagining it or dreaming it.
Is Hive different from many other systems? Yes! Differentiation is important. Is everything about Hive great or perfect? Certainly not. We do the best we can with what we have and also work to improve it.
In any case, you can think of it as somewhat like a business where the shareholders vote on how the business is run (usually indirectly, by hiring a board or manager, but on some occasions directly). Those with a larger share of the business have more votes. That's not completely new, but applying it to a dynamic content rewarding environment is new (or at least was new when Steem invented it)
The money isn't in your wallet then taken away. It's in limbo fluctuating as the market corrects to decide the value. Think if this period as a secondary market. Round and round it goes, where it stops nobody knows.
I don't agree that one person should be able to wipe out what 100 others users thought was quality, but it's a tricky issue to tackle. We must have a balance to ensure free speech. What's a more balanced system? Certainly not one without downvotes.
Above I've mentioned one improvement to better decentralize Hive. Unfortunately it doesn't address this particular one. I'd say this one should be dealt with one on one between the parties involved.
I bet with the right wording, one side can bring the other to the table. It takes the defeated side to be more humble though. I don't think that affects anyone's free speech, just ego...
To be fair, 4 stakeholders isn't the will of Hive..
There are a lot more than 4 stakeholders.
Exactly!
Again, I'm not turning against this platform, I'm just exhausted trying to win it back from authoritarian censors, and tired of not calling it out as loudly as I can (because I was worried about getting zero-repped out by y'all - but I'm not anymore)
As I've also made clear dozens of times (from the very first posts I've made about downvoting until now), yet you refuse to understand, this is about the broad-sweeping problem of centralized control on Hive, by a small handful of people, who like to censor content that causes them cognitive dissonance, and people they don't like.
I am just what I am. My wallet is public and I have never once sold tokens for fiat.
@kennyskitchen has undertaken to promote this community and has built his following by that sweat and effort. Now you and others seek the HP he has accumulated thereby and use flags to prevent that HP from being useful to him. You continue to purge the voices you disagree with for fun and profit, deprecating Hive all the way to the bank. You are actually selling free speech for tokens by that mechanism, and it is free speech that is Hive's source of value, not it's token.
I do not accede to your characterization of your implementation of censorship as 'just a few downvotes'. I have seen dozens of high quality content creators driven from the platform by you and the censorship of free speech you and your ilk undertake.
Thousands of Christians have just been removed from Twatter. Gab is absorbing them. Why isn't Hive?
Because you make Hive no better than Twatter.
Had you and other oligarchs on Hive actually decentralized HP, rather than centralize that power in your wallets, Ned could have never destroyed Steem, and it could have actually become able to prevent being turned off by the UN, as is coming soon.
You didn't, and you will be judged as you have judged others.
Thank you for the courtesy of your reply, but unless you're going to substantively address the underlying problem of centralization of HP, please just ignore me instead. We'll both be happier, and be able to do things that actually matter with the time saved.
Whilst many of us say we're in this for the community, we wouldn't stay if it wasn't for the rewards, unless the platform worked in some other magical way, but then it'd just be Facebook. However, it's a little balance of both, I believe.
Whilst people are critical - have been critical - of the Abundance Tribe autovotes, recipients were chosen because they were good authors who added to the platform in some way. Now of course people might disagree with that, but HIVE was always meant to provide a home for everyone, no matter whether you like their content. I've seen Abundance Tribe remove autovotes when people were taking advantage of it and, say, posting soley memes, and certainly withdraw support when people acted in consistantly violent ways. Everyone I knew took the responsibility of producing good content for that vote seriously - they took time over their work and made sure it was worthy. And for some people, in some places this vote made an incredible difference to their lives - they were able to pay the rent, buy themselves a phone when previously they couldn't. The Natural Medicine editorials are a case in point. They were upvoted well because of all the hard work behind the scenes commenting, curating, retaining people, making them feel valued AND they weren't cut and paste editorials. It was a devastating blow when we were downvoted for a stage because it wasn't just a financial blow, it was an emotional blow for all the hours of work and good intention that went into it. So yeah, there's always a tension between financial and emotional reward here. Some whales don't take into consideration how much the rewards influence people's real lives or let their personal bias about particular content influence their voting patterns.
I always felt incredibly honoured to be supported by you and AT, Kenny. I've always found you incredibly thoughtful, intelligent and measured, and willing to interact with others in a respectful way. The content AT has supported is needed just as much as crypto is - of course, I'm biased as I believe we probably need posts about freedom, truth, love and the like even more in this current climate (when have we not?). I'm under no delusion this is for everyone, but it doesn't behoove those who profess to support HIVE to supress the voices that make up it's whole. You are valued. I've never seen you act with anything but integrity and a post that speaks out against what happens here is just as important - if not more so, ;p - than a post about cheesecake.
Love this Heinlein quote! It struck me that one of the things I've loved about this platform - and why, perhaps, I'm still here - is that HIVE helped me increase my skill set! Reflecting on the years here, I think of what it's provided me outside the financial realm - I've learnt many things about permaculture, for example, crypto (of course), co-operation and leadership, writing and poetry, and so on and so forth. The fact that's it's given me some financial gain as well just helps with that as well - it paid for my course on how to grow mushrooms, for example, and helped pay off part of my mortgage. It also helped open my mind in many ways to all kinds of things. TSU is part of why I stayed here and probably become more skilled up than I would have in the communities I'm in in real life (sadly - lol, I must find a new tribe!).
I really didn't want to comment here as I've had my fair share of drama but I felt it was important to say thanks for all the positive influence you've had on people here, including myself, and the things you've enabled to happen, like the support of alternative health on HIVE.
After reading your wonderful comment @riverflows, I realize that there is so much that I didn't touch on. How Kenny enabled so many other communities to come together and thrive. I only touched on it by saying how his main focus is on creating abundance for all, how could that really be seen as adding no value to the platform?
At the end of the day we are all in this together, regardless of what side we take, what we choose to believe, how we choose to live.
Right now as the world continues to lock down, surely we should be providing the opportunity to open up. To encourage people to come and be heard. Like you so rightly said, that is what is needed now more than ever.
I am forever grateful for my AT family xxxxxx
Me too. I thought your comment was perfect - couldn't have said it better myself. But gosh - yes, when I think of @miriannalis with the Spanish community and @holoslotus, and various other projects Kenny's been happy to support just because we asked him to and he knew we had good intention, and were pro Hive and pumping out quality work that we all believed made the world a better place, well, that has meant a lot to a lot of people. I think if you don't like things you should scroll on by - unless it must be stood up against, of course, like violence against woman or something! WE ARE all in it together and should be listening to each other, not shutting each other down.
Just cause you're not always respectful doesn't make it any less valid. I'd rather eventually say what I think than constantly be fake for whatever I believe it will bring me down the line. Like when you and a few others left the incubation because you couldn't help yourself to stuff your own pockets of the curation reports rather than share it with the community and were getting overrewarded reports by, oh wait, who was it again? Yeah, tribesteemup, aka, kennysupvotekitchen. Some of you pseudoscience nutjobs need a reality check every once in a while, since you're too far gone from what you preach at least the rewards can be affected.
Why many word when few do trick?
Except it wouldn't even be facebook, because of the technology gaps.
The rewards system is a means of distribution. It's not the "Whale's Inflation", it is just their job to allocate it.
As I mentioned before, I think downvoting someone because of an opposing viewpoint is just uncalled for and the antithesis of a decentralized platform like Hive. If someone disagrees, put it in a comment or make another post and have a real debate.
Honestly, Kenny and I have completely opposite views on a lot of things, but not once have either one of us taken it out on the other, called each other names, insulted the beliefs of the other, etc. We have a common interest in Splinterlands and the HivePizza community and have been working toward the same goal of bringing more and more people into both communities. I love how Kenny has brought more awareness to Hive and Splinterlands and his work to further the reach of both is admirable and should be rewarded, not penalized.
The other issue of "downvoting due to disagreement on rewards" is a tricky path to go down. Why should a few highly powered up accounts dictate what is or isn't a proper award for a post? As many have mentioned, the trending list is full of basic food or nature pictures getting $200-400 rewards and I don't see any of the usual suspects downvoting them into oblivion.
Just like beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so is the "quality" of a piece of written work on Hive but, in the current system, whales can decide unilaterally if something is "worthy" or not and shoot it off the trending list with a single downvote. The downvote is seemingly meant to "protect" from inflation (according to the whales), but they should not be the sole arbiter of what post types should and shouldn't contribute to that inflation. They are effectively editors and Hive is just one big newspaper media company that they are running.
Kenny, I really hope you'll stick around and continue contributing.
This. So much this.
The fact that most of the people I've interacted with in the years that I've been here have all been willing tobehave in this... human way with each other is a big part of what I've loved about it.
In 65 months, I've only had run-ins with maybe 5 or 6 people who weren't willing to just be peaceful like this (whether that means debate or muting me)... of which 4 or 5 were top whales (one of whom is long gone)
Unfortunately, that is the nature of Proof of Stake - it's a codified version of financial might makes right
I feel like one of the points these folks keep making that is valid, is that this is the way Hive is designed, and they do run the governance, and it is their blockchain (they own most of the stake)...
The core of the problem really comes down to the way that Steem/Hive was sold to so many of us as a decentralized, cenorship-resistant, free speech dedicated platform - when it was never really any of those. It had the potential to be two of the three (20 accounts running governance is the opposite of decentralized) - but it would have required all the big stakeholders to want those values enshrined.
It seems that the down-voters are all more than happy to agree to this, and explain how they don't have enough voting power to deal with it... while using their voting power to shut down conversation and punish journalists & researchers putting in untold hours.
I think this last sentence here is a big part of why they scream "NO!" so loudly when this topic comes up... Because without the lie that this is a decentralized, proof-of-brain, crowd wisdom kind of platform... that means exactly what you said - this is a publishing company with official editors - and that means they would have to take on a LOT more liability.
Thanks :-) I'll still have mechanisms set up to support the community even if I never come back to any of it myself. We'll see what happens.
I don't think I can justify to myself continuing to support, promote, and add value to a platform that is so against me, what I support in the world, and where all that value eventually trickles back up to a handful of folks abusing power.
Kenny, I should have added to that last sentence: I hope you'll continue contributing, but will 100% support you if you don't because you need to do what's best for your own well-being!
But first of all, some random quotes:
Yeh, yeh, yeh @kennyskitchen! many links, articles and blablabla in this post with varied, diverse and interesting topics since 5+ years. But none of them talking about how to make filthy selfish money for yourself as the king and many other members of the downvoters royalty would have liked it.
So, no wonder many of your posts have been downvoted by them. I myself would have downvoted them too. But I have not all that filthy selfish money behind from other large stakeholder's delegations inadvertendly supporting my downvote as to be able to please my whims and bring your content to zero buck$ at the same time. And in that way it's not fun. So, why bother? :D
Last random quote:
It would be great to think that with enough intelligent analysis and commentary, the various groups with various approaches to life would value and understand each other enough that they would unite enough to have harmony. While it is not impossible to hold space uniformly, in a respectful way (balanced), the reality is that Earth is wildly out of balance and heavily polarised into what amounts to 'sects' in many cases.
Having participated in online forums for decades, many of which are oriented to resolving world imbalance, it has been made abundantly clear to me that:
A) Many people are reversed away from their own heart and the associated balance that only heart presence can manifest. The result is that they will do whatever they can to exploit the denials of others and stifle even the most noble causes.
B) The degree of misunderstanding about important aspects of reality and also common failings at logical processing within the majority of people (regardless of qualifications being held) is such that there are large numbers of people with deeply held convictions about economics, life and wellbeing that are provably wrong, yet which the people involved will never allow to be examined/exposed or changed. In essence, many people are stuck in fight/flight mode due to their own unresolved traumas and anything approaching open mindedness or even an ending of stress itself, will tend to trigger their imprinting that leads them to try to recreate stress. In other words, projection and denial are epidemic - leading to most of our global problems.
C) The lazy thinking that is so present, globally, often means that people will quickly throw other people into fixed 'boxes' that define them to be 'that kind of person', even when the evidence doesn't really point that out as being a truth. This both makes life 'easy' for such people and also reinforces the idea that they are right and others are wrong. The basis for such inaccurate, dysfunctional and lazy thinking is usually a lack of self acceptance. Of course, this lack of self acceptance (self denial) is usually also heavily denied - so there is usually no way to approach this with such people until they feel it in themselves and start to notice something isn't right (they than have to take action to correct it too). I know all of this after decades of working on myself and with others to resolve exactly this problem.
D) While it would be great for everyone to be consciously engaging on a similar level, with similar intents and an aim to find balance.. We simply aren't there yet. There is nothing wrong with freedom of association and everyone is going to be going to their right place now - whether they know it yet or not. What this translates to on Hive is that we need to focus on layer 2 communities and effectively create 'internal forks' that mean everyone stays on Hive but people who wildly disagree do not usually cross paths.
I personally greatly appreciate you Kenny and your work/efforts for Hive (plus so many other areas). There are huge numbers of people who do too (or would if they understood).. There are also large numbers of people who simply have no frame of reference for the way you live, your goals and who you are - instead of knowing you, they will simply judge you. That is part of what is happening here.
Much love to all.
Below is an excellent discussion covering points you raise and providing high-level psychological insight into polarisation around these topical issues
upvoted for a Chris Martenson link to follow.
I just want to echo some of your sentiments. There's a lot of polarization and all kinds of labels and name calling going around especially concerning communities that I've been a part of and towards content users that I enjoy and respect.
Is it too much to ask to disagree with others without it devolving into smears, insults, harassment, and personal attacks?
Disagreements are healthy and help people learn and communities develop. You would expect a true decentralized platform to have a healthy diversity of opinion...
I remain quiet for the most part, not out of fear of retribution but we've all engaged in this circular argument multiple times without finding satisfactory solutions. Often, we're further divided than when we began.
The other reason I usually refrain from jumping in is that, like many, I prefer to concentrate my efforts on building solutions. I don't like to talk about my plans before they're ready to be released but I've been working on an L2 project with @truthforce, @ura-soul and others for close to a year. Still a lot of work to be done but we're getting there. By now I think most agree that the way forward is clearly going to be L2s and experimenting with community tokens.
Just also want to say to @kennyskitchen that I think your track record speaks for itself and you've done a lot for Hive and the previous chain in terms of on-boarding, community building and supporting a wide range of users. I've never met you but I admire your dedication and resilience on this journey and also for speaking up for those who can't defend themselves.
Cheers, you're not on trial, keep your head up.
The simple fact of this whole last few months is this.
Investors looking to buy Hive will be repulsed by the behaviour and words of a few of the top witnesses. If this was a company they would have been fired the second they started cussing people out and accusing them of being "willing to sell their mothers for money" on top of the other rampant swearing and derogatory comments.
People have left Hive and are continuing to leave due to being sworn at and belittled publicly.
And the fundamentals are still here but are eroded by bad witness outbursts publicly. We all criticized EOS when they had drama, this is no better
unfortunately, people do get partially stuck at certain ages of development, yes - ideally, freedom of association via layer 2 can start to resolve the problems being caused by it.
Then they too have an issue with free speech. It can't work both ways.
People leave every platform for various reasons. There's no one-size fits all solution. Looks to me that more are coming than leaving. New users are more likely to buy, while older users are more likely to sell.
While the inference might sound negative, it's how markets work and for Hive to succeed, we need new investers. Retention is another animal that all platforms will never tackle either.
1(b.?) Again, free speech. Swearing is common place these days. It's here to stay and plenty of people swear legitimately in common conversation. It's becoming more common, not less.
Also, those here in this thread are not representative of the top 20 as a whole. That being said, we need fresh blood in those positions. A few new 1st layer developers would be nice as well.
I don't take issue with the downvote. The problem is it only affects earnings and reputation. It needs to be added to governance as well. As is, the top 14 accounts can push their will on the platform. They don't own 51% of the stake though. All the levels below Whale could override their votes for Witnesses and Proposals if the downvote were added to them. This is what I'd like to see.
Look mate, I'm not even going to bother reading this post.
I left you a comment a few weeks ago in one of your posts literally saying that I believe you do bring value to Hive. I've also been around here a long time so I know.
If you're going to behave the way you have the last comments I've read then I'm going to answer to you like an absolute dickhead too, since no one else is because everyone's too busy caring about their image or potential rewards or witness standings to say anything. Is everything I said true? No. Is everything you've said true, about censorship, anti-truth, CIA and other ridiculous and literaly batshit crazy stuff, also no.
So how about you man up, take the downvotes, think of the bigger picture. Ask others nicely to counter overdownvotes if they keep occurring instead of acting like a balding lunatic after a few dents on all the rewards you've gotten over the years on this chain and focus on what you think provides value to this chain.
I'm not someone who lashes out at people at random nor do I have any reason to defend anyone who's against you and your post rewards. As has been said many times, most posts are overrewarded, especially these days. I'm going to continue downvoting posts and authors I feel aren't being rewarded as fairly as others and you can continue to upvote posts you feel for some reason deserve more rewards. There is a middle ground with a discussion as to why you feel they deserve more and why downvoters feel they deserve less to be had, I'm usually someone who spends the time discussing them but not with people who are just going to instantly call it quits and start shitting on something I hold dear to me which is this technology and platform and the work I've put into it over the years. The fact that you don't makes it really, really difficult for me to expect that you're in it for the right reasons and not just to leech out as much value as you can and some whale out there having made the wrong decision to trust you with his stake. Maybe not initially, but similar to autovotes, trailers and delegatees tend to get lazy or abusive over time.
Anyway, do what you will with this. If you feel it's content worthy for another post to defend whatever you think you have left to defend here from people who already are close to you because you've fed them over the years then so be it, it's not going to change my or other people's view point who know better about what Hive is and what it's not.
A lot of accounts you mentioned in the beginning of the post that I did read already sound like red flags to me where I distanced myself from because I noticed they were mostly focused on their own earnings rather than actually wanting to build communities and give out fair rewards to authors, their curators and moderators. Maybe you've just trusted the wrong people or you're all kind of the wrong people banding together, hard to say but not worth the effort for me to go deeper into finding out. Most of us here today are just a stepping stone for what this technology will eventually become, I'll rather work on making sure new users are enjoying their journey than spend any more time on a handful of them not getting what they want.
Great start...
TL;DR I mostly just laid out the evidence that most of what you've said about me, which you give as justification for the censorship of my content (and that of others) is straight up lies.
You're committing fraud, obviously, on the chain, because a bunch of us are calling out the bullshit of your cabal.
Interesting how quickly things turned and your were calling me names while ranting about how worthless everything I've done is and I only support myself.
Almost like we can't take anything you're saying seriously, because you aren't honest.
If you'll notice, I'm being very careful about addressing specific comments that people make, by quoting them, screenshoting them, and/or linking them. That way I can show what they're (you're) saying, and what my response/concern/rebuttal is, instead of just making sweeping, generalized statements.
I would appreciate if you could do the same, so I (and readers) know what you're talking about.
Hilarious, that you think that witnesses are the ones living in fear of speaking out. Especially against someone like me.
I'm the guy that has enough stake to decide the top 20, right?
I'm the guy that likes to zero out people's content - especially when it challenges me, right?
Have you noticed the fact that many of the people who have spoken out against you and the others **are doing so despite their fear of (sometimes already suffered before) retribution from you?
You're projecting.
A lot.
Absolutely not, that was the point of this post.
To show that you are recklessly stating blatant lies about people, and censoring their content based on these lies.
I don't ever claim that everything I've ever said is true. Only that it's my best understanding so far, based on my observations, research, and logic.
Whenever I'm talking about things outside my own experience, I provide links for everything.
I'm always happy to have a conversation with those who disagree with me, and the calm, polite, and intellectual conversations I've had over the years with people I disagree with about most things, have been the best part of my time on Hive/Steem.
How about instead of downvoting people, calling names, using ad hominems, and attempting character assassination, you actually read the evidence that we provide, do further research, and draw your own conclusions.
You seem like a smart guy.
I am thinking about the bigger picture; that's why I am making a big deal about it this time.
Usually I say nothing when I'm down-voted, or I go ask the person for a reason.
In this case, I used my one example to help bring attention to rampant abuse on this blockchain, and an attempt to turn what is the best opportunity for a censorship-free platform, into another FaceBook - just with a dozen Zucks instead of one.
I'm not *just silently taking my abuse from the feudal lords, because I have zero fear of your retribution, and I have to use my voice for the many who feel that they can't.
It's not about my rewards that went away, never was.
Read the above comment.
Or read the last post I made.
You know, that part above where you were making all those comments full of lies about me and others.
After this point, everything else in your comment has already been addressed, or doesn't seem like it needs it.
Thanks for proving my point this much more.
You clearly aren't listening to what any of us are saying, because your responses don't ever seem to update with the new information.
Stop Downvoting in Hive!
Holy Cow, all the discussion here! I know it's futile, but I upvoted anyway lol. I feel there are aspects I still don't know about HIVE community. I hardly ever go to Trending. I guess if I want CNN's version of HIVE then that is where to go.... I'm still happy with this social media forum because the posts themselves aren't removed.
Kenny, you're one of the most involved and engaged content creators on HIVE. You've provided immense value to the ecosystem, and kept at it consistently for over five years. I'm amazed and discouraged that HIVE is still dealing with censorship and ideology-based discrimination after all this time.
"We believe in decentralization! Except when it comes to decisions about what content people should consume and how much the creators should be rewarded for it. Then we think five people should be in charge, and those five people should be us."
Well, haters gonna hate. Statists gonna state. I hope they don't succeed in driving you away.
What is your problem @acidyo? Why are you actively trying to drive creators off the platform under the guise of "some stakeholders" preferences.
Who are YOU to decide what content comes here?
IMO, downvoting should be reserved for completely unacceptable content (like abuse of others - which you are ironically doing here @acidyo).
HIVE has C/ communities specifically to give seperated 'spaces' to creators so that they can post things that they like, and you are barging into someone's space to tell them what they are and are not allowed to post, while actively ZEROING their income and insulting them?
lol I literally invited 300 users to Hive personally this week, I'm not actively trying to drive creators off the platform.
If they behave like absolute despicable entitled assholes, though, then they can fuck right off. Do you disagree with that Mr comment selfvoter?
This guy has done shiteloads of content, over plenty of time, and it's generally not low effort whatsoever. Where's the issue? All I've seen is him getting repeatedly bashed by you and your nuking of HP values, alongside many others.
As I said, I really see no point in downvoting unless someone is doing something insanely morally wrong, what's he done wrong besides from post things you dislike?
And? It's quite literally pennies to tick-over the HP APY while I'm away in trails. Again you're finding anything to bully folks with, it's hilarious, and you call others entitled?
I don't nuke anything, I started adding my downvote on top of the others which most already zero'd him based on what he's been saying about Hive and his intentions which negatively affect it. Someone who's been rewarded well for years, even though he's also provided value to it, shouldn't instantly turn 180. It's not a good look for him nor for the people he's supported as it seems it's all about rewards.
Selfvoting comments, especially short ones saying "welcome" has been frowned upon in forever, voting trails are free to join or delegating your HP to curation projects. Doesn't mean you should get a higher APR than others who don't self-vote their comments no matter the size of your vote. How is what I'm saying entitled?
If you actually read any of the posts or comments I've written to you (or about centralization and censorship on Hive over the years) you'd know there was nothing instant about it. I've wanted to leave for years, but been talked into staying by community, time after time.
Hey, there's a whole section in the post that you're commenting on about this specific nonsensical baseless claim of yours.
Just try to act honestly, for like 5 minutes maybe?
On top of that you started downvoting random comments of mine that don't even have anything with Kenny or you to do, isn't that a form of bullying/retaliation/being a dumbass?
You are a whale zeroing out hundreds of dollars worth of people's income.
Might as well do my part against that? Go ahead, laugh at the little minnows whom retaliate to your over-zealous downvotes against certain creators.
You clearly see the disparity between these situations right?
No cause I'm not the one self-voting or votetrading while KennyS here is, tribesteemup->xeldal votes.
Post rewards shouldn't be seen as income, they're never guaranteed, same with curation rewards and witness rewards. HP APR is the only guarantee.
Right, but that depends on perspective I suppose. To a blogger or someone whom puts the effort in to write detailed posts and such on a long-term basis, it would be much of their "income" so to speak.
From what I've seen, most long-term folks here certainly write good quality stuff, and IMO don't deserve to be "pushed down" from it. Plus, isn't Hive (especially PeakD and Hive.blog) geared towards bloggers / writers?
Yes quite a lot and people should be earning I don't deny that, but if it so happens that a few posts get overdownvoted it shouldn't mean all hell breaks loose like some people act. I know it's easy for me to say cause I don't do most of my earning from post rewards, but I do know the feeling of getting zero'd, for months even and people need to be prepared for it. Anything can happen. I will however attempt to counter excessive downvotes (and upvotes) as much as I can when I have the extra time or happen to stumble upon them after finding out there was no real reason to (like josediccus recently), unless of course the way people act and the things they say make me not only not want to help them out but to downvote and lose my temper on because I think they're being such pieces of shit that they don't deserve to earn anything for the time being.
I can't disagree with you there. I occasionally view the "muted" area for people that I feel were over-downvoted and I try to help correct that with my little HP (excluding the REALLY weird stuff, spam, plagiarism, nobody likes that 😛).
And well, this is how I found Kenny and started following his posts a bit, I get that some folks are "over rewarded" but I'm really not a fan of the 'zeroing' that can happen to these folks, it feels hostile, and certainly to the creator, and that's what I feel triggered Kenny recently, most creators would probably feel the same way.
True, but he's not just a creator, he's a curator and many other things and has been for so long. Sure you could say I need to take better care of my vulgarity and outbursts but he could also improve on the way he reacts to such occurrences, especially since his actions/words are what triggered mine. I don't just lose my shit on people at random, i.e. don't have anger management issues, lol. You came out of left field as well but I realized you probably just don't know about why I've said and done what I did so I didn't just go on a rampage nuking all your selfvoted comments or harming your reputation score. I do hope people would use their vp in a more "give and take" kind of manner, both for posts and comments but similar to how you want to reward your own posts you've put a lot of effort into I can understand if you do the same for those comments if no one else does. It's just nicer receiving I guess so I kind of strive for that.
Appreciate that 😛 and your patience here haha. I just want folks to be "looked after" by the platform I suppose, easy to get shafted by Twitter, FB, Medium and everything else on more "contraversial" topics, and those folks I imagine will find refuge at Hive, as long as it's not insane stuff... I'm happy with it.
I reverted my vote spree on you anywho, apologies on my part. I hope Kenny doesn't get too discouraged as I do think he makes some decent posts, but I understand your points a bit better now as well. !LUV 4
@jskitty(1/4) gave you
Hey look, more baseless conspiracy theory from the King of Hive.
Did you bring evidence of any kind with you this time?
No? Just publishing more libel?
I'm not the one claiming I don't want autovotes and never forfeiting any post rewards (until after getting downvoted) and overreacting to them.
Also muting you at this point cause my time is more valuable doing other things.
Missing the entire point of everything I've said to you, for days, once again.
I guess once all of you mute me, I won't get downvoted for hitting trending anymore, since you won't see it?
image courtesy of @logiczombie
lol, mind telling me what the context is of those votes? Or is this how you do research when you post and call people covidiots, idiot?
Just saw an image in the most recent update I was tag-spammed in, that seemed so very perfect for this conversation, to trigger your totalitarian rage some more.
Oh look, it's cause the usual suspects that overreward garbage that brings low value to Hive retaliated on me for downvoting cross-posts and links. Nice find bro, you totally won the argument!
Now show me some posts of yours you've forfeited rewards in the past or even self-downvoted cause you felt it got overrewarded. :)
So... because I don't decline rewards all the time or downvote my own content, it's OK for you to continue publishing libel about me on the blockchain?
Show me where you've ever once disproven, refuted, or even challenged any of the "controversial" topics that you think aren't worth rewarding?
You could refute what I say if you like, but if you're going to compare what I do and try to justify your shit by listening to literal idiots like logiczombie you're just digging your hive grave deeper.
I don't have to constantly disprove your theories to judge something overrewarded, I wasn't even the one downvoting you initially, remember? It's not hard to find that highimpactflix isn't providing any value to Hive looking at his literal dead ass account not get any engagement or traction even though they've constantly been trending from autovotes in the past. How much more clear do I need to make it to you people? Even if Trump were to join tomorrow, if all he does is cross-post from his social media platform without ever mentioning Hive it's quite natural that the support should extinguish over time, but apparently you guys want it to continue forever for some reason.
I'm sure others would take the time to disprove things but most of the time that content barely even has any engagement agreeing with it so not really sure what you want from me, lol. It's not like I need to understand how an airplane works to know what it's supposed to do.
Kind of ridiculous I have to point these things out to someone who has been here "curating" apparently for this long and providing value to Hive as to what actually brings value to Hive. A literal new gods unchained player who has around 10 views on Twitch has onboarded more people to Hive in the last week than dbroze has, and his content has more engagement. It's quite sad how downhill some things here have become and what we find acceptable.
You are derailing the conversation, once again, by talking about people that aren't in these conversations, who none of us have pointed to as the examples of receiving malicious downvoting.
You keep jumping between defenses for the actions of you and others, because none of them are defensible. Just shell game until people stop trying to talk to you, or you get triggered and start cussing them out.
I want you to stop spreading libel about me, and to make corrections to the many places that you have. You'll notice that you are the only one I've been specifically calling out so much (with this post) and it's not about downvoting at all (it's mentioned briefly), it's about you, one of the most powerful people on the platform, attempting to defame my character with outright lies, repeatedly.
It would be nice if you, or any of the other overlords, would stop feeling so high on yourselves now that you cut StInc out (keeping their ninjamine for yourselves) and are the top of the food chain now. But that's not going to happen, because that would be completely anathema to to the game of statism.
I call shit out like I see it, and you seem to be just that.
You've many times derailed or blatantly ignored some of my points, like me not even targetting you initially until I read your intentions and how you were burning your bridges because of some allegedly malicious downvotes. I've literally told you many times that I even considered assisting with countering said downvotes if they happened often over time but now I won't because you seem to be a despicable cunt. I trust my judge of character even if english isn't my main language while you dance around things I say and write walls I can't be bothered reading every time.
You think that I care if you step on my nerves and what I may say to you because it may harm my image. I don't care about my image or what your followers think of me. You're all irrelevant and so am I. I don't think of myself as better or bigger than others but I know what value on a social media platform similar to Reddit is and what most of you guys are doing and the accounts you're supporting isn't that.
Was fun seeing how you grasp at straws to "pay me back" for what I've said. Now please escape my memory.
Except that you have multiple times in these comments admitted that you also just talk shit without caring if it's true, or what the consequences might be.
And this is literally a post proving that you are publishing libel (intentional fraud for the purpose of defaming someone's character) to this blockchain.
Care to go through the post you never read and the comments from this and the one before, and see how many times I have done a specific, point by point, breakdown & response of what you've said, only to receive completely name-calling, totally unrelated topics, and more random lies?
Because anyone can go through and tally us up.
I never said otherwise, and I've made it clear that my first post was about malicious downvoting in general, and I only made my second post about you because you were telling so many outright lies all through the comments.
Didn't know English wasn't your first language - I'll give more wiggle room for translation.
However, it is EXTREMELY important to do breakdowns and in-depth responses if we are actually going to ever get anywhere.
You'd know that if you were ever involved in having actual debates, about actual topics, using data & facts, presenting evidence, challenging claims, making counter claims, etc.
But why actually hash it out when you can just call names, downvote, and slander people instead?
Whether or not you care is beside the point. The point is that you are more than happy to continuously provide evidence of the fact that Hive is a relatively centralized platform, run in large part by juvenile wannabe dictators.
Every time I give you the opportunity, you do so again.
Your behavior is doing more harm to Hive's PR than I could ever do if I tried for years.
Would this be the part where I laid out a couple thousand word post showing how you are committing libel against me (along with just being disrespectful, immature, and unwilling to communicate), and your comment was to say that you weren't going to read it, and then spew another bunch of lies about me (repeating many of the ones I had already shown to be lies)? Was that how I "paid you back?"
Or was it the part where I asked if you though $1.25 per word for a literal advertisement post was over-rewarded content?
I prefer to do things than endless debates that ultimately lead nowhere, something you guys have probably mastered at this point after monetizing misinformation for years.
How have I been unwilling to communicate? just because you make it hard which often results in me not tolerating the bullshit doesn't mean I didn't try. I don't have facts that you do actively vote-trade (self-vote), I've stated many times that I don't have time to dig in deeper into that but I wouldn't be surprised if you do because 1. your reaction to downvotes and 2. general history of people having control of a lot of stake and never showing any signs of not making the most of it.
How can you call an announcement post for a new project overrewarded? Are they farming daily posts on several accounts like you have been?
It doesn't matter what I consider over-rewarded, because I'm not willing to remove the rewards unless there is actual abuse involved.
Two accounts, which only posted daily together for... a week or two, before i got burnt out and posted less than daily between them ever since.
This is another example of you saying things that you know are not true to try to make me look bad, and yourself like a hero for vanquishing me.
Kept this one short, so maybe you'd read it.
Like most of your videos, which you also selfvote instead of sharing that tiny HP around with others.
Remember that post where I spelled out all your lies, and you didn't read it, and you keep repeating them?
We do :-)
I upvote myself the same or less than the other individuals that I curate. Communities, intros, contests, and other extra-high quality content 4-6x what an individual with a normal post gets.
I've been open about that for years.
Yep the implication there matters, if you vote yourself with that unsubstantial amount compared to what your posts generate in general, imagine what you do with that stake trusted upon you on who knows how many sockpuppet accounts. Must be tough running them all and making it look genuine and like unique users, if only you could actually clone yourself and not just look like one you could even fake engagement on all of them! Guess the science isn't there yet, or maybe you guys think it is but it's being kept secret by the government? Maybe you can post about something else than covid every once in a while or is that golden goose still asking for it?
What behavior? My downvotes are max 30$ big, I threw most after your posts complaining about downvotes and rewards being removed already had gotten downvoted by other larger stakeholders. Are you saying I shouldn't say words that pop in my head when I see someone act like a disgusting piece of shit because it may harm Hive? Isn't that the freedom of speech we have here, something which on other platforms would get you blocked/banned? Vulgarity is kind of like nudity, a bit overprotected in dumbass countries like the one you reside in I assume. If people want to judge me for using such words it's fine, I doubt there are many kids on Hive yet so it's not like they run the risk of reading an endless thread like this. I have openly critiqued curangel's downvotes that 0 rewards completely and recently even started countering josediccus who is also getting downvoted but compared to you not acting like an absolute scumbag.
Now fuck off.
Acidyo - upvoting himself with OCDB, because he got down-voted... While telling me I'm only in it for the rewards.
Also Acidyo
I upvoted myself due to retaliation. Would you like to see more retaliation on Hive?
Hey, more threats from the big scary whale man.
Surprise?!
That was lame, even for you.
You really can't help yourself, can you :)
Countered your dumb downvotes to save the returns of the other people that voted them similar to how I added a vote on another account I felt had been overdownvoted today. Something I would've done eventually for your friend Kenny too if he hadn't gone full shithead.
People still don't understand what the word "potential" means?
Look. There is no contract that says you are entitled to whatever the potential reward at any moment says. The only reward that you can actually call "income", is the one payout on the day 7 after the posting.
Of course it varies, I never said otherwise, I'm specifically talking about the zeroing of rewards that happens for folks that make their income on the platform, it feels OTT to have their entire potential rewards wiped.
I never said it's guaranteed or anything of the like, purely the above.
I did talk to Acidyo a bit afterwards though, so can disregard some of what I said outside that, I hope Kenny isn't too discouraged, any creator would be after these events.
Voting them late even, lol, sad.
GASLIGHTING
Reblogged to help you bring more exposure to this post @kennyskitchen
Dear @kennyskitchen
Few friends of mine shared with me that publication and initially I didn't think about sharing my feedback.
However, I actually feel your pain and I also would like to share my story. Which in many ways is similar to yours.
Myself, I've also been targeted by the same person (as many other friends of mine were) without any real explanation given. Every single post I published has been downvoted to zero, which not only affected my rewards (which I was okay with) but also affected the rewards of everyone who supported my content with upvotes.
After all, their curation rewards were affected in negative ways.
I've never provoked Acidyo and I've tried to stay away from any way of creating conflict. Many people tried to talk calmly on my behalf and I've done everything in my power to calm things down. Unfortunately, I've failed. Bullying continued and I was left with no option, but to say good-bye to this platform.
Since then, I've seen many other users being targeted by this particular individual. It seems to me, that once he decides that he doesn't want you around - then he will simply wipe out all rewards of your hard work. Bringing reputation to zero and effectively censoring your publications by achieving that.
As much as I wish HIVE to be successful, I'm no longer part of this blockchain. Because one person proved that it's far from a dream of decentralization. One so-called "whale" can destroy the work of pretty much everyone.
If Facebook, Youtube, Twitter ban our posts, then at least we (users) can find out the reasons behind those actions. Those entities need to follow some laws and regulations.
Here the situation seems to be very different. Acidyo do not need to answer to anyone. He is judge and executioner. Proving that HIVE is far from concept of decentralized voting consensus. Proving that one person can make life miserable for many users. Without giving even reason for his aggression and hostility.
Again, I wish HIVE to do well. But in the long term - this behavior of one person will bring so much black PR to that blockchain. And it will obviously affect the value of investment of everyone here.
Stay safe,
Piotr
Blurt.Blog
Give it a year... HIVE will go down as SteemIt 2.0 while STEEM will just be absorbed in TRON.
Your Community should be built in BLURT. Much easier that way.
well I guess it just means that you need more upvotes then because this post definitely reserves a payout > 0
@tipu curate
PIZZA Holders sent $PIZZA tips in this post's comments:
@dlmmqb(2/8) tipped @scholaris (x1)
Learn more at https://hive.pizza.
Good afternoon. This post should be posted on Linkedin, and the link repost via Twitter! Then there will be an excellent result and meaning. Personally, I do this and find it effective. The masses of people must find out what is happening here! Thank you for posting. I wish you every success and all the very best.
Like with any case of disagreement on rewards its a matter of who agrees with you and who agrees with your downvoters.
Just because @acidyo downvoted you and has a reason as to why, there will be those that disagree. Its not as if he determines your status here.
We are decentralized.
Even with alts, he controls maybe 0.5% of all staked Hive. Theres still 99.5% of other stake that can vote you. If Acid doesnt think you provide value, you can always try and convince the other 99.5% that you do.
Ive been downvoted by almost every whale on this chain. I never found the need to make a comment on those downvotes.
They either stop by themselves if theres really no reason for them or others would counter them.
Now, ive no idea whats going on here, nor do I care to spend time looking into the drama.
What I can say is if someones downvoting you, offers you a reason as to why and a solution, and you want them to stop, its a simple matter of readjusting your approach to things.
When id get downvoted it would generally be retaliatory and those would always stop on their own when they got bored and saw that i didnt give a crap.
No ones a fan of getting downvoted but most people are reasonable and you can easily make these go away.
Hey, thanks for coming and leaving a calm reply to the matter; though it does seem as though you didn't dive in deep enough to know what's happening, exactly.
As he has pointed out multiple times, he wasn't one of the ones downvoting me, until I started calling this out. This post is about his repeated publishing of false claims about me; not downvotes.
More than 1 company running it, yes. Not nearly enough to actually call ourselves that, imho.
Again, acid was only called out because of his behavior. My original post, and these conversations as a whole, revolve around a variety of accounts: curangel, ocdb (acid), altleft, azircon, acidyo, and smooth being the primary ones.
In progress, as you can see from ura-soul's newest post, and 2 folks getting knocked out of the top 20 so far.
There's a good sized get-out-the-vote campaign going on right now, and it's working - to prove a point at least.
Same, including many that are long gone.
If you catch up on the conversation, it isn't about one person or one incident, it's about a systemic problem in Hive. Both by design (dPo$), and in the current breakdown.
They never offer a reason, except sometime when we write posts calling them out, at which point they downvote those, and come into the comments to mock & slander us, and obfuscate the problem.
The two biggest abusers are curangel & ocdb - which actively refuse to give a reason or even say who's giving the downvotes (it's azir & acid, respectively, I'm pretty sure)
The dozens (or more - just what i've found this week) of folks who were negative-repped by these handful of whales, would probably disagree.
We'll see how they react now that we're coming at their witness positions, since communication didn't get us anywhere but down-voted and muted.
Downvotes arent a systemic problem. Theyre not even a problem. For anyone present here more than a year theyre the biggest solution and upgrades that ever were presented to the chain.
One of the few changes (free downvotes) that have been an ABSOLUTE success.
The lack of downvotes was one of the reason Steem failed.
Theyre not required to offer a reason. Its up to you to seek it and find the reason if you want to know it. A vote or downvote is just a claim of approval or disapproval. Nothing else.
I dont think thats true. I can even for sure say that is false. I didnt go deeply into it but seen Acid explain it in one of my posts. Again, i dont care to go deeply into it but obivously he gave his reasons.
Why would anyone expect those that dont like getting downvotes agree with downvotes being essential?
I will vouch all my HP that its an undeniable fact that simply a DM seeking common ground could make these downvotes go away.
The problem is that youre not trying to come to common ground. Youre enthused over an existing potential to "Hurt" them. Hurt their witness status etc.
So obviously you have no intention of communicating. You want to go to war and try and "beat them". Seeking common ground doesnt mean telling them: "Heres why Im right and youre wrong. Stop what youre doing."
There is no beating them nor anyone here with any decent commitment or stake. All youre doing is solidifying yourself as not only someone they downvoted for reasons they saw as legit but also as someone they would get retaliatory satisfaction from downvoting because you want to hurt them. As would anyone.
Id recommend just adjusting to their concerns. There is a common ground where everyone wins.
guys come with me if you seek true freedom. This is a tyrannical oligarchy in disguise.@markymark @onealfa @edicted.. help us defeat the despots. we will not go gentle into that goodnite.. it's a revolt!
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blah blah blah blah blah
You know I'm not a Hive whale and I don't downvote people, right?
no no, it's too late for that now edicted. the average american can't afford a $400 emergency. you got over 200k in your portfolio. i can't protect you anymore
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lol bitch please
So I should have dumped all my Hive and spent it?
Keep threatening my life you fucking lunatic, see where it gets you; nowhere.
You are powerless and your opinion doesn't matter.
Deal with it.
oh it's not me. i'm a man of peace, lol.. the people will deal with you sir in good time.. they'll deal with all of you. that's not a threat.. that's a promise sir
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Ah I see so you're a pacifist prophet that just happens to know that violence is coming for the people you don't like.
Yeah that's not delusional at all.
My mistake.
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Are we still doing movie clips?
I feel left out.
Remember how this one ends?
Reminded me of you.
SPOILER ALERT
movie clips are the only truth there is..who would know better than jews in hollywood and i trust them
" looses it!.... noooo i know the truth my truth is the only truth!.. crying ......
i know better than everybody else!
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Wow that video has aged so well I'm so glad I actually listened to it again.
The first time I listened to it I had no idea how much of a scam HEX was.
So listening to him shill HEX is hilarious.
LALALALALALALA IM NOT LISTENING!!!!
LALALALALALA
wow hex is ranked number 5 https://coinranking.com/
i was in on day 1 so i actually made enough hex to pay off my mortgage on a 7 acre ranch i'm now free and clear.
Seems like people got a variety of different ideas about hive. like bad pr and market sentiment hmm.. i have millions of coins in hex newest projects as well pulse and pulsex...i'm going to use that to back bbd coin i'm sure it will do very very well. bringing the first certificate of deposit to the hive blockchain.
idk if it's a scam or not but most cryptos sound scammy to me.. bitcoin 87% of the network owned by 1%
idk what the numbers on hive are but the opinions not doing so well it would seem
my advice go find a neutral person who's observed your behavior and ask them what they think about you?
@edicted is deep state pedophile.
well you did say i was powerless yesterday and to deal with it.. that's the same thing records say jeffrey epstein said to those kids before he did what he did.
i got a way to test this.. when nobody is around ask your girlfriend in all honesty no lies all truth.. ask her just to tell you if you're racist and you'll have your answer. If she doesn't answer right away hell nah.. if she beats around the bush or has to think.. then you may have your answer
We have to stop the Jews from taking over the world.
Hitler was right.
well they say the victors write history and hitler was no victor. take from that what you will
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Terrible and stupid advice.
How would I find a neutral person?
How would I then convince you that this person is neutral?
What behavior are you babbling about?
Legit no one on this platform has a problem with me but you and maybe one or two others.
Just kidding it's just you.
No, you don't.
Yeah, amazing logic.
I've seen the HEX community, and they seem cool, so I'll just leave them to it.
No shit, ya don't say?
wow hive coverage at minute 26.. good job guys
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Have you not noticed that Bernie isn't even around anymore?
Such a clown.
Guess who was buying when he was dumping?
bernie was my blood brother. he's a good man one of the best men in crypto. See i never said i was against downvoting. i said i was against marky mark downvotes.. marky mark downvotes anybody not in his criminal club to extort us out of our money and hive power.
I said we should have downvotes but only by an elected committee the community entrust to do the right thing afterwards they serve a term and get the hell out of the way.
downvotes a tax on the rich as it should be.. people like you. history shows we'll win edicted remember the people really for me and against you... you do well to remember that.
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You'd do well to remember how full of absolutly shit you are.
Say I'm the problem because I'm rich, and then admit you bought a house with HEX gains?
How fucking high are you?
Also, Bernie was a thin-skinned fear-mongering little bitch boy narcissist.
You fucking kidding me right now with this shit?
Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing possible, you outdo yourself.
It's incredible, truly.
Who the fuck do you think you're talking to?
All of the data is on chain, dipshit.
I've pumped exponentially more value into this network than I have extracted.
Pull your head out of your ass.
https://hiveblocks.com/@edicted
Welcome to basic math 101.
Where I've only earned 71,576 Hive total in the 4 years I've been here.
Oh, what's that?
How much do I have powered up?
MORE THAN DOUBLE THAT?
DURP!
Fucking clown.
No no i didn't buy a home.. i paid off my mortgage.
The difference is like robin hood i take money from the scammers to give back to the people. i used my resources to build history and mankinds greatest idea.. the citizens dividend..i created an autocuration system with an intuitive ai to reward posts. i built my own blockchain to set men free with my resources.
yes sir
Thankyou, Richard Heart and Hex Coin!
can you say the same? i'd never succumb to crony capitalism and corporatism like you
Men of integrity must always speak truth. You're right bernie was a thin skinned fear-mongering little bitch who did punk ass shit.... but so was che guevara.. he supplied his armies with like 12 year old kids and was a murderer and brutal.. however his imagery and what he stands for .. has went far beyond that. the effect is still more powerful than the negativity.. if you compare joe rogan to che guevara what are people going to say? they will say che was a man who stood for much more important ideas than joe rogan.
just like they'd say bernie a beacon of freedom and oppression would be a better man than you. that's just how it works
Who the fuck do you think you're talking to?
All of the data is on chain, dipshit.
I've pumped exponentially more value into this network than I have extracted.
i must disagree with this sir the return on you guys investments should be no more than about 38% per anum in my opinion. you all pull from our resources here far more than you give. you all should be bonded to that percentile and the rest of the value should flow back into the network in my opinion.
Then they'll flash images of the greatest men in history... Nikolas Tesla, Issac Newton, Bishop Tutu.. MLK, Milton Friedman...then they'll show my picture and Bernie's.. i don't even know what bernie looks like.. he probably looks like some 25 year old liberal kid someplace with acne.. either way his picture would be up there.
The sphinx speaks!
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Your delusions of persecution and grandeur are truly a sight to behold.
Next you'll be arguing with me that 2 + 2 = 5, while acting superior doing it.
Yeah, you don't have any resources on Hive.
Try again. Try not being delusional and thinking rationally.
You can thank me later.
If you build something of value, that's great.
That's the great thing about crypto; anyone can build anything.
Here: let me share a secret with you:
I'm not your enemy, and your insistence on the 'fact' that I am is ridiculous.
Especially when we get this far into an argument and it's still 100% unclear what your problem is with me.
Spit it out: what's the problem?
Stop babble-talking and throwing out vague generic bullshit.
Obviously it has something to do with downvotes?
Except I don't downvote anyone. So... what the fuck?
oh when i make my move you won't know it's me
My problem sir is this:
https://leofinance.io/@mykos/re-shortsegments-pvdux
the war can't end until my mission is complete
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I am NOT interested in this.
Please do not tag me any more, or I have to MUTE you
you will be interested in the revolution when it's at your doorstep one alpha... pumps fist!
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