Hive needs more friends than enemies

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The history of this blockchain has involved a fair bit of conflict. A lot of that has been related to the Dreaded Downvote! We have had so-called Flagging Wars between various people. Sometimes those are very one-sided. A smaller account can have all its rewards removed and its reputation sent negative if a much bigger one takes against it. Being a whale brings some responsibilities as you can make or break accounts with your votes, but some whales are at least partly anonymous and will act as they want. That can include being mean. The freedom of Hive means that they cannot be stopped from doing that and we cannot force them to give their reasons.

Having said that, I believe most whales and other big accounts have an interest in the platform growing. If they just drive people away then they are likely to make less in the long term as there will be less investment. Getting a larger share of a smaller pie is not a good strategy. A few big trolls may try to wreck things, but they are a minority.

One of the bigger accounts is under the control of a former voting abuser who used it to give themselves massive votes on multiple posts each day. They eventually gave up posting after the community took action, but we cannot stop them using that account to vote and earn curation rewards. I saw a post from someone claiming to own the 'rancho' account saying they lost the keys, so they cannot take back control. That seems very careless with such large sums at stake. Some accounts have tried to counter the 'rancho' votes to reduce what this person can make from curation, but that can cause upsets for people who thought they were in for big money. Rewards are always potential until payout. I have not seen them complain about the free money they could be earning even without the big votes.

I have been part of various anti-abuse efforts as I saw it as important to try to get rewards where they were earned rather than letting people just profit from junk posts, plagiarism, self-votes and other scams. Some will say that anything goes as the code does not limit what you can do, but the whole idea of this platform was to use Proof of Brain where people use their votes to determine how the rewards are allocated. Some people I downvoted really hold a grudge and keep sending tiny downvotes my way, years after the event. That does no harm as there are some bots set up to cancel them out.

Whether a post is worthy of rewards is very much a matter of opinion. There is plenty of content here I have zero interest in and some I would think is malicious. We have lots of people spreading conspiracy theories and promoting nasty ideologies. I would not want to share a room with some of the people doing this, but Hive is designed to resist censorship. Even if a post is downvoted it is still on the blockchain. Someone could easily create a site that ignores the downvotes and shows it all with no extra clicks to unhide it. I know @threespeak was intended as a censorship free platform (hence the name) and it has been used by people I consider unpleasant. At least one person I signed up here gave up as he did not like that there was no overall moderation.

I will vote on stuff I like, but there are plenty of big accounts who will vote on content that many would not like to see. I could downvote what I do not like, but then I am not looking to get into ideological voting wars. Others care less about what vitriol they stir up and may even relish the fight.

What I am getting to is that some people have got very worked up over how they have been treated on Hive. Some were considered to be abusing it, which they may disagree with, and some got caught in the crossfire of some of the incidents above. The mistake some make is to go on the attack against whales and anti-abuse groups. That is a war they are unlikely to win. They might have a chance if they try to make amends or cooperate with others to repair the damage. 'Rage quitting' tends not to help their situation and I have seen plenty of that. In some cases they do not actually leave for some time.

Some of these people go back to 'The Other Blockchain' and some go to Blurt. Some will post everywhere in hope of making something and often duplicate posts across platforms. I know Blurt appeals to them as it has no downvotes, but it seems you can lose the ability to earn if the witnesses decide you are a serious abuser (can someone confirm this?). I have looked in there now and then, but it is not really worth my time.

I have seen several people post about the Sourceforge reviews of decentralised social platforms. Hive is dicing it out with Blurt, but as the former has some negative reviews from disgruntled ex-users it is falling behind. I did a review a few weeks back. Apparently you can get paid for leaving reviews, but I am not too worried about that when I earn so well on Hive.

Sourceforge

Of course we know which platform is really the best. Nothing matches Hive for opportunities and variety. It has dozens of active dapps, including the biggest blockchain game @splinterlands. St--m and Blurt really just have one main site each with very little development going on that I can see.

I think we have to be careful about who we drive away from Hive. Some may come in and be seen to be abusing it, but have not understood what is considered acceptable. For some earning even a few dollars a week can make a real difference and they will anything to get that. I do think that Hive should offer everyone a chance, but it needs to be done honestly. People in various cultures and locations can do something to nurture new users to guide them to a productive path. They need to be caught early before they damage their chances too much. I would rather try to persuade someone to change their ways than lose them if they have a chance of adding value. This which may involve downvotes, but also discussion and guidance.

Our overall community is pretty small and we need to be as inclusive as possible. That can mean tolerating the presence of people we dislike, but we can mostly avoid them. If you go looking for fights you will find them. If we make enemies then some of them will be very vocal about their bad experiences and use them as a stick to beat Hive. You can find plenty of that on Blurt. Some people with read those posts and join up there, missing out on what Hive offers.

If we want Hive to succeed we need to sell the idea of is whilst countering the negativity. We have to be realistic about the 'costs' of freedom. I think the benefits far outweigh the negatives and will keep on promoting this platform.

Do you think Hive has a chance of really growing? I think we suffer from a lack of publicity, so few know it even exists. People can earn in lots of ways even if they are not interested in the social side. The interest you can earn on HBD is better than most conventional savings.

Hive five!

hive tsudoscience community abuse proofofbrain palnet neoxian
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if the witnesses decide you are a serious abuser (can someone confirm this?).

They have a thing called the Coal list which if you are on it removes the upvote button from your posts. Well, I think it does. I saw a post there ages ago about it. Not sure how that can work well without being centralised or abused but fair play, it's an attempt.

Downvotes are a tricky one. I hate the fact that people don't understand or choose not to understand that the money isn't in your wallet. It isn't yours. Not until payout when the total positive minus negative is calculated. Instead, people say they have been stolen from.

But I do understand it can produce huge negative feelings , I get that. It's why I think things like the commentiphant can really help as it communicates through humour and mean in many cases a downvote might not be necessary.

But it will always be a subject that causes drama. And some folk thrive on drama

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I had heard mention of this coal list. I expect without it some big accounts could take a lot of the rewards.

I have talked about normalising the concept of DVs here. People shouldn't take them so personally. They can just be about adjusting rewards, but also get used vindictively. I've far too much drama over this, but meanwhile thousands of people are happily earning something. I don't think it's as big a problem as some make out.

!BEER

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I don't think it is such a biggy either but the ones that often get them tend to be the shouty types.

Whatever floats their boat if it makes them happy.

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hi @steevc, it's a pleasure to meet you. i don't speak english and i am translating with google translator, sorry if the translation may not be correct. I translated your whole post and I agree with you. so far i have met here on hive all kind people and ready to help others ... this made me fall in love with hive ... I'm not talking about the economic part because I'm still very small and my conpenses are very low ... but I really believe in hive ... I think we all would like to receive a good grade from a whale, but it's not easy to get noticed ... it's not easy to write a post that you may like because tastes are subjective ... what I like you may not like ... even if it is decentralized it is right that there must be some small rules, otherwise it would be anarchy ... I believe that respect towards people and loyalty is fundamental.
I congratulate you and wish you a good evening ...
I want to follow you to read your other posts. thank you so much @ luba555
♥️♥️♥️♥️
!PGM
!hivebits
!LUV

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Hive is more than just money. We have a great community. Nothing is perfect, but we need alternatives to the big companies.

!BEER

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yes it's true you are right my dear friend
❤

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I wondered what happened to the DAO supported publicity campaign I saw going about last year. That was supposed to bring us into public awareness. Instead I see Elon Musk, Donald Trump and Jack Dorsey inventing Hive over and over again in their heads.

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Was STEEM not on that list of best sites? or is it a centralised site now 😀
It says Blurt is better.. so it must be the truth!

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Not any more it doesn't!!

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I had a look, they are now equal. The early reviewers were the salty ones likely the wankers who were abusing.

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Dang, I looked earlier and hive was in front. A true battle it is turning out to be.

You are right on the early ones. That's where the negative ones came from

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Hive is top again with St--m(it) (separate entries) listed lower down with few reviews. We know how such charts and polls can be manipulated by community action. With some big Hive accounts giving votes if you post a review we might get a few more.

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I could make a calculated guess at who this is.. London location would make it 100%

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Yes, I can be fairly sure who that is. She's still bitter. Some are unlikely to come back to Hive, but maybe we could tempt a few over.

I do troll Blurt a bit. I can self-vote there with impunity, but then I have hardly any BP. If you Google Blurt then a load of other things come up including a film and a band.

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I do troll Blurt a bit.

You do? Hah.. I haven't posted on there in.. well 2 years or so, but I will check out your toxicity!

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I should really stay away from it. It's not like I will earn much from it, but I just can't resist.

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Reading your post I can see a lot of the views in it that I share.

I think we have to be careful about who we drive away from Hive. Some may come in and be seen to be abusing it but have not understood what is considered acceptable. For some earning even a few dollars a week can make a real difference and they will anything to get that. I do think that Hive should offer everyone a chance, but it needs to be done honestly.

People need to learn how it is done here. I often feel like a newbie here and it's been years now. I don't know all the rules someone posted somewhere on his blog.
Some of the design flaws of Hive are not explained to new people nor are being fixed. Selfvote for posts and comments is seen as abuse and not treated well. Put the design allows for it. More and more I see habits as I have seen at our old roots of Steem. New arrivals have a hard time figuring out what the etiquette is here. Then I see self-righteous accounts "whales" that try to impose their ideals over the mechanics of the platform and keep punishing people for what they seem not to understand who is even imposing their power of the vote on them. This is called equalizing here. All under the umbrella of anonymity because these people demand an account verification to the people they punish but do not disclose their identity nor what qualifies them to push for the authority of the Hive blockchain as it is declared decentralized and free. This is driving people off the platform as I see it in some discord channels. Being inclusive with positive motivation is very different psychology that seems to be disappearing. Abuse is to many people very different thing.

Many projects that also support me understand that and I am extremely happy and appreciative of support projects like OCDB, @ecency @photofeed or @photographylover, etc. pp.
This is the way to motivate bloggers and creators to publish unique and substantial articles. We should uplift the great content over going around and trying to punish an individual. Advising on how to improve and succeed would be a positive approach to toxic autocrats acting all awkward. That's what I wish for and hope for Hive to thrive.

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I think it's best to not enforce behaviours in the code, but leave it up to the community. We do need to guide newbies on what is acceptable and they should be told as soon as they join. Various people do welcome comments with some info. I have done many posts about this and have a general guide pinned on my feed.

The whales have generally proven themselves by their actions (good or bad). Verifying identity if you are posting content that is available elsewhere matters as we get plenty who pretend to be someone else. We just need to strike the right balance of being welcoming whilst dealing with abuse.

!BEER

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I think it makes sense. I See some just get frustrated to repeat again and again how to be have better on the Internet. Its not what people learn in school. I See we are on the same Page here.

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I think you hit the nail on the head when you talked about how people react to the downvotes. It seems the people that get hit the worst are the ones who are immediately defensive and then go on the attack. That or they go the passive aggressive route and start posting stuff on the blockchain. If they just stopped and asked what they can do to make things better, they would likely be further off. We were talking about the Source Forge thing in the Leo Discord yesterday. My fear is if Blurt gets no poor reviews we will never be able to overtake them in the poll, no matter how many good reviews we get.

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Thank you very much for this great writing, there is a lot of information here that I did not know.

I think that all of us who are involved in this should strive to do things right here because if HIVE is doing well in general we all benefit from it, if on the contrary we destroy our home there will be no choice but to live in the street and that is something that is not heard well.

But not everyone thinks logically, some put greed before common sense.

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Greed tends to destroy. We all benefit if Hive does well. So do what you think is right.

!BEER

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(Edited)

Free speech means people you dont like are going to say things you dont like, and yes i have seen some people driving away a lot of people from HIVE and we all lose from that, everyone should be able to express themselves, ofcourse we have to fight stuff like pedophiles, millions of dollars are kept away from hive because of driving away people "you dont like, that say things you dont like" we should bring them all to hive, we are all going to benefit from it, you dont like what they say? Dont go and read their posts and downvote them? you dont like "conspiracy theories" good dont read them but let people that like conspiracy theories enjoy them :) Hive has a bright future if really is free speech, not hey yes we are free speech but if you say something i dont like im going to harass downvote you and yes i have seen harass downvote from some whales, they even have harassing downvoting trails, as you say, they are doing more bad to all us than good... Just imagine if we onboard 1 million conspiracy theorist on hive, they each get 10 HP, thats 10.000.000$ and the whole ecosystem would be benefited!!! For example, in my case if i got harass donwvote i would take out my HP and just stick to the games and if i want to post im going to find another place to do it, even if i dont get rewarded :) and i know there are a lot people like me around, theres a lot of terrible things in hive in my point of view, perverse things truly, i dont downvote them, i dont harass them, i dont read them, easy!

Posted using Neoxian City

Posted using Neoxian City

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Actually you are free to downvote whatever you want, but most people will never do that. Hive is an experiment and not everyone will like how it goes. We have to find what works for the most possible people. I think we agree that making enemies does us no favours.

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Thank you for this explaination, Steve!
I did read it when you first posted it, but only half of it makes sense.
Now I've been downvoted the first time on my latest post by an account with a leading x, which looks like someone holding a grudge against the bigger/real account, but harming us little fish instead, so I have re-read your article and things are getting clearer.
Do I need to worry about the downvote? I understand a downvoate to correct a placed vote is quite normal, and nothing abusive, but this one shouts abuse.
Do I need to do anything?
Thanks!

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The downvote will do you no harm at all as they have little HP. Downvotes only affect your reputation if that person has a higher rep score. I wouldn't worry about it. People are free to do what they want on Hive and this person is trying to make some sort of point. I get lots of tiny downvotes and they can only take a few cents off my posts. The freedom of Hive means they can be trolls if they want.

!BEER

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Ah, thanks for clarifying that!
That's fine then! 👍

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